A my wszystko mamy :) by Kaz 2006-10-30 03:23:59
Jak już wszyscy wiedzą, bo słyszeli, czytali, widzieli zakończyła
się tegoroczna edycja konkursu ABBUC, w której członkowie tej
zacnej organizacji przyznawali punkty i nagrody za zgłoszone do
konkursu prace. Organizatorzy, jak to w zwyczaju mają, nie
ujawniają nic ponad oficjalne wyniki, choć z góry wiadomo, że
autorzy programów sami wkrótce zadbają o to, by programy pojawiły
się w internecie. W zasadach konkursu ABBUC nie ma nic bowiem o
tym, że programy te nie mogą być rozpowszechniane przez autorów
_PO_ konkursie. Kwestią więc czasu jest to, aby programy te wpadły
w ręce gawiedzi spragnionej nowych atarowskich doznań :)
Niezrozumiała też dla mnie jest polityka informacyjna ABBUC-a: nie
ma nie tylko opublikowanych zrzutów ekranowych z programów, co
mogłoby zachęcić do zakupu klubowych dysków (dodawanych do
członkostwa w tym nobliwym klubie), jak i zwykłej informacji, w
jakiej dziedzinie dane programy zdobyły nagrody. Dlatego
poszperałem sam, przekopałem parę miejsc, przycisnąłem parę osób i
mogę autoratywnie stwierdzić: teraz na atarionline.pl jako pierwsi
mamy wszystko (z konkursu ABBUC-a). Ale zacznijmy po kolei, od
wyników. Choć znane, przypomnę dla porządku, uzupełniając jednakże
o informacje do jakiej kategorii dany program należy i z jakiego
kraju pochodzi autor:
Analizując powyższą tabelkę możemy z łatwością zauważyć, że nie ma w niej ani jednej polskiej produkcji. Dominujemy w świecie w najlepszych grach na Atari, w najlepszych produkcjach scenowych, zapewne w użytkach też jesteśmy świetni i możemy konkurować z każdym, a mimo to nie ma ani JEDNEGO polskiego programu. Może to oznaczać jedną z dwóch rzeczy: albo Polacy uważają swoje programy niewarte wystawiania na konkurs ABBUC, albo niewarty uwagi uważają konkurs ABBUC. Nie mnie rozstrzygać jak jest naprawdę, pozwolę sobie jednak zauważyć, że przynajmniej połowa ze skończonych w tym roku polskich gier mogłaby śmiało zająć czołowe miejsca. Nie tylko dlatego, że produkcje te są na wysokim poziomie, ale także dlatego, że konkurencja na świecie jest tak słaba... Przyjrzyjmy się, o czym mowa. Na początek gry, bo te są dla mnie najbardziej interesujące. Mamy 6 gier w konkursie:
Voyage to Home
Strzelanina w kosmosie, która zajęła przedostatnie miejsce, a ostatnie wśród gier. Jej autor Mario Caillahuz z Peru (wcześniej błędnie napisałem, że z Chile, przepraszam) wysłał na konkurs łącznie 3 produkcje, niestety żadna nie znalazła uznania w oczach jury i nie znalazła się na pozycji "pieniężnej". W sumie prosta gra, ale z "oldskulowym", nawet wciągającym klimatem.
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Plague Attack
Po raz drugi Mario z Peru i po raz drugi niskie oceny członków ABBUC-a. A gra naprawdę nie wygląda źle. Po raz kolejny przypomina gry z lat 80-tych, ale one też mają swój urok. Nasz bohater musi bronić jabłka przed plagą wyjadaczy owoców.
.png)
.png)
Accion
Również dość prosta strzelanina, przypominająca "Operation Wolf" z innych komputerów, a adaptację w postaci "Operation Blood" na Atari. Kolejna praca Mario, która nie przebiła się wyżej. Może ktoś weźmie tego chłopaka pod swoje skrzydła i wspomoże go grafiką i muzyką? Bo z kodowaniem to sobie nieźle radzi.
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Light Up!
ABBUC wysoko ocenia gry logiczne, w przeciwieństwie do czytelników Atari Area ;) Dlatego 50 euro trafia do Mato Simi-ego ze Słowacji, który stworzył to dziełko. Gra zrobiona fajnie, nie ma się do czego przyczepić na pierwszy i drugi rzut oka.
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Cavernrunner
To niemiecka gra, jakiej dawno nie było. Przypominająca "Cave Lord" i "Pharaons Course" komnatówka ze zbieraniem przedmiotów. Moim zdaniem wykonana słabo, ale mogę się mylić, spędziłem nad nią tylko kilkanaście minut. No mnie w każdym razie ta gra nie rusza, choć lubię wędrować po podziemiach.
.png)
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Head On
Radek Štěrba z Czech lubi wygrywać konkursy (nawet w Głuchołazach jedząc "pyszności", he he), więc i tutaj był blisko głównej nagrody, ostatecznie zajmując drugie miejsce, a pierwsze wśród gier. Tym razem jego gra zarobiła dla autora 250 euro. Wyścigi samochodowe dla dwóch graczy w labiryncie a la "Pac-Man". Brzmi to chyba wystarczająco dziwnie, żeby się temu przyjrzeć.
.png)
.png)
Dla równowagi mamy też cztery programy użytkowe:
Volks Forth
Bezapelacyjnie pierwsze miejsce zajął język Forth w wykonaniu Carstena Strotmanna. Pozycja zasłużona, ponieważ to chyba jedyny naprawdę dobry program (a raczej zestaw programów) w tym gronie. Ludowy Forth, bo tak chyba trzeba by tłumaczyć tę nazwę mieści się na dwóch stronach dyskietki, zawiera wiele przykładowych programików w Forth, a także dokumentację.
SIO-Hi-Patches
Jak sama nazwa wskazuje, służy do noszenia granatów... znaczy się przeznaczony dla MyIDE OS i XL/XE OS przyspieszacz operacji dla Ultra Speed (Speedy, Happy, APE/SIO2PC/AtariSIO, itp.), Turbo 1050, XF551 2xSIO, Warp Speed (Happy 810).
Whiskey Mon
Dla mnie najbardziej zagadkowa pozycja w całej dziesiątce. Po pierwsze program sygnowany rokiem 1992. Po drugie monitor dyskowy działający tylko z dyskiem D1 oraz tylko z dyskami w pojedynczej gęstości (SD). Jakim cudem to się wepchnęło na siódmą pozycję? Tylko ABBUC wie.
Screentest
Ostatni program to, przepraszam za wyrażenie, prawdziwe badziewie. Mamy możliwość przetestowania naszego monitora - jaskrawość, kontrast, zakrzywienia i tym podobne.
Zapoznaliśmy się z zawartością ABBUC-owej czarnej teczki, więc pozostaje mi uzupełnić artykuł o wszystkie wymienione wyżej programy. A oto i one (uwaga, chwilowo niedostepne!) - pierwsze dwa dyski to wszystkie programiki wraz z krótkimi opisami, zaś drugie dwa to kompletny Volks Forth w najnowszej wersji. W swoim czasie gry pojawią się też jako osobne pliki w naszej bazie gier.
| Lp | Autor | Kraj | Program | Rodzaj | Punkty | Kasa |
| 1 | C. Strotmann | DE | Volks Forth | użytek | 227 | 500 |
| 2 | R. Štěrba | CZ | Head On | gra | 206 | 250 |
| 3 | M. Reichl | DE | SIO-Hi-Patches | użytek | 205 | 125 |
| 4 | W. Fiedler | DE | Cavernrunner | gra | 196 | 75 |
| 5 | M. Šimeček | SK | Light Up! | gra | 179 | 50 |
| 6 | M. Caillahuz | PE | Accion | gra | 172 | - |
| 7 | G. Schui | DE | Whiskey Mon | użytek | 171 | - |
| 8 | M. Caillahuz | PE | Plague Attack | gra | 163 | - |
| 9 | M. Caillahuz | PE | Voyage to Home | gra | 160 | - |
| 10 | S. Niestegge | DE | Screentest | użytek | 153 | - |
Analizując powyższą tabelkę możemy z łatwością zauważyć, że nie ma w niej ani jednej polskiej produkcji. Dominujemy w świecie w najlepszych grach na Atari, w najlepszych produkcjach scenowych, zapewne w użytkach też jesteśmy świetni i możemy konkurować z każdym, a mimo to nie ma ani JEDNEGO polskiego programu. Może to oznaczać jedną z dwóch rzeczy: albo Polacy uważają swoje programy niewarte wystawiania na konkurs ABBUC, albo niewarty uwagi uważają konkurs ABBUC. Nie mnie rozstrzygać jak jest naprawdę, pozwolę sobie jednak zauważyć, że przynajmniej połowa ze skończonych w tym roku polskich gier mogłaby śmiało zająć czołowe miejsca. Nie tylko dlatego, że produkcje te są na wysokim poziomie, ale także dlatego, że konkurencja na świecie jest tak słaba... Przyjrzyjmy się, o czym mowa. Na początek gry, bo te są dla mnie najbardziej interesujące. Mamy 6 gier w konkursie:
Voyage to Home
Strzelanina w kosmosie, która zajęła przedostatnie miejsce, a ostatnie wśród gier. Jej autor Mario Caillahuz z Peru (wcześniej błędnie napisałem, że z Chile, przepraszam) wysłał na konkurs łącznie 3 produkcje, niestety żadna nie znalazła uznania w oczach jury i nie znalazła się na pozycji "pieniężnej". W sumie prosta gra, ale z "oldskulowym", nawet wciągającym klimatem.
Plague Attack
Po raz drugi Mario z Peru i po raz drugi niskie oceny członków ABBUC-a. A gra naprawdę nie wygląda źle. Po raz kolejny przypomina gry z lat 80-tych, ale one też mają swój urok. Nasz bohater musi bronić jabłka przed plagą wyjadaczy owoców.
Accion
Również dość prosta strzelanina, przypominająca "Operation Wolf" z innych komputerów, a adaptację w postaci "Operation Blood" na Atari. Kolejna praca Mario, która nie przebiła się wyżej. Może ktoś weźmie tego chłopaka pod swoje skrzydła i wspomoże go grafiką i muzyką? Bo z kodowaniem to sobie nieźle radzi.
Light Up!
ABBUC wysoko ocenia gry logiczne, w przeciwieństwie do czytelników Atari Area ;) Dlatego 50 euro trafia do Mato Simi-ego ze Słowacji, który stworzył to dziełko. Gra zrobiona fajnie, nie ma się do czego przyczepić na pierwszy i drugi rzut oka.
Cavernrunner
To niemiecka gra, jakiej dawno nie było. Przypominająca "Cave Lord" i "Pharaons Course" komnatówka ze zbieraniem przedmiotów. Moim zdaniem wykonana słabo, ale mogę się mylić, spędziłem nad nią tylko kilkanaście minut. No mnie w każdym razie ta gra nie rusza, choć lubię wędrować po podziemiach.
Head On
Radek Štěrba z Czech lubi wygrywać konkursy (nawet w Głuchołazach jedząc "pyszności", he he), więc i tutaj był blisko głównej nagrody, ostatecznie zajmując drugie miejsce, a pierwsze wśród gier. Tym razem jego gra zarobiła dla autora 250 euro. Wyścigi samochodowe dla dwóch graczy w labiryncie a la "Pac-Man". Brzmi to chyba wystarczająco dziwnie, żeby się temu przyjrzeć.
Dla równowagi mamy też cztery programy użytkowe:
Volks Forth
Bezapelacyjnie pierwsze miejsce zajął język Forth w wykonaniu Carstena Strotmanna. Pozycja zasłużona, ponieważ to chyba jedyny naprawdę dobry program (a raczej zestaw programów) w tym gronie. Ludowy Forth, bo tak chyba trzeba by tłumaczyć tę nazwę mieści się na dwóch stronach dyskietki, zawiera wiele przykładowych programików w Forth, a także dokumentację.
SIO-Hi-Patches
Jak sama nazwa wskazuje, służy do noszenia granatów... znaczy się przeznaczony dla MyIDE OS i XL/XE OS przyspieszacz operacji dla Ultra Speed (Speedy, Happy, APE/SIO2PC/AtariSIO, itp.), Turbo 1050, XF551 2xSIO, Warp Speed (Happy 810).
Whiskey Mon
Dla mnie najbardziej zagadkowa pozycja w całej dziesiątce. Po pierwsze program sygnowany rokiem 1992. Po drugie monitor dyskowy działający tylko z dyskiem D1 oraz tylko z dyskami w pojedynczej gęstości (SD). Jakim cudem to się wepchnęło na siódmą pozycję? Tylko ABBUC wie.
Screentest
Ostatni program to, przepraszam za wyrażenie, prawdziwe badziewie. Mamy możliwość przetestowania naszego monitora - jaskrawość, kontrast, zakrzywienia i tym podobne.
Zapoznaliśmy się z zawartością ABBUC-owej czarnej teczki, więc pozostaje mi uzupełnić artykuł o wszystkie wymienione wyżej programy. A oto i one (uwaga, chwilowo niedostepne!) - pierwsze dwa dyski to wszystkie programiki wraz z krótkimi opisami, zaś drugie dwa to kompletny Volks Forth w najnowszej wersji. W swoim czasie gry pojawią się też jako osobne pliki w naszej bazie gier.
Epi 2006-10-30 03:25:36
Ja myślę, że jednak kilkanaście prac z .pl zostało wysłanych na konkurs, ale organizatorzy nie potrafili odczytać zawartości .atr-ów, rozpakować .zip-ów, skonfigurować pamięci, wczytać programów wymagających DOSa, czy też właściwie podłączyć dżojstika, za co zdyskwalifikowali owe prace. ;) Pozdro, "były uczestnik" ;)
Kaz 2006-10-30 03:26:15
Z jednej strony to tłumaczy brak obecności polskich programów. Z drugiej - to czemu nie było do nich jasnej i prostej instrukcji (po angielsku, ze o niemieckiej nie wspomne)? Chyba, ze byly, to wtedy trzeba by sie zaczac martwic o poziom umyslowy oceniajacych...
mikey 2006-10-30 04:21:27
Kaz uwierz, to drugie!
sikor 2006-10-30 07:56:01
Epi, a można od Was te programy jakoś dostać...?
xxl 2006-10-30 08:40:31
Head On wyglada smakowicie. czasem ciupie w to na MAME :-)
Sikor 2006-10-30 08:58:00
Kaz: jakiś błąd w skrypcie masz czy co? Po odświeżeniu zdublowało posta...?
Kaz 2006-10-30 09:39:47
Sikor - blad raczej w "skrypcie" przegladarki ;) Podwojne posty oznaczaja, ze nikt ich nie przegapi :))) Zaraz usune.
sikor 2006-10-30 10:24:32
O.K. - dzięki. Po prostu głupio to nieco wygladało. A wygenerował jakby co FireFox ;)
Kaz 2006-10-30 10:26:34
To zdaje sie (nie znam sie, tak mi powiedziano) nie od konkretnej przegladarki (bo moja Opera tez tak robi), ale od ustawien glebokosci cash-owania w przegladarce.
xxl 2006-10-30 10:31:01
nie znam sie ale moze pomoglo by: po dodaniu komentarza skrypt powinien przekierowac na newsa tak, zeby ewentualne odswierzenie i wyslanie drugi raz formularza nie przynioslo efektow ?
Kaz 2006-10-30 10:42:02
Moze byc - przekaze uwagi Zydze, bo jak juz wspomnialem - ja tu tylko sprzatam.
dhor 2006-10-30 11:36:49
Z powyższych .... Plague Attack :)
Head On by było niezłe, jakby nieco popracować nad formą.
Cavernrunner niegrywalny - lata ten chłopek po planszy jak potłuczony.
Lightup - przydałby się opis w grze, co robić ( nie czytałem .txt bo prawdziwi twardziele nie czytają ) - tak to nie umiem w to grać.
A na Fortha jestem za stary :)
Kaz 2006-10-30 14:50:22
Niejaki Kamules vel Filorator vel Ozzy vel Czarodziej dostal bana na swoj IP za caloksztalt. Dlaczego niektorym wydaje sie, ze buraczenie w internecie to taka fajna zabawa? Wszystkie posty powyzszego z tego watku zostaly usuniete.
xxl 2006-10-30 15:29:06
pozycja 2 i 3, tylko 1 punkt roznicy, alez musiala byc walka
Jar-eck 2006-10-30 15:58:38
Świat się nigdy nie uwolni od kretynów....
Co z pytaniem Sikora odnośnie Waszych produkcji ?? :)
Kaz 2006-10-30 16:42:10
Wlasnie, Epi - jakie produkcje i w jakich latach miales na mysli?
Gury 2006-10-30 17:18:21
Hi Kaz,
Thanks for putting ABBUC 2006 games and other stuff for download.
Allas 2006-10-30 19:01:41
Hi all, it's a pity I cant understand polish language. But it appears the article said Im from Chile. That's not true. I'm from Perú. (southamerican country at the north of Chile)
Regards,
Mario Caillahuz
Kaz 2006-10-30 22:08:55
Sorry Mario for my mistake - I'm just fixing...
Kaz 2006-10-30 22:11:32
Mario, country just fixed, sorry for that again. I didn't realize that is any Atari community in Peru.
Vasco/Tristesse 2006-10-30 22:15:33
Mario: we know, where Peru is ;)
Kaz 2006-10-31 02:10:49
Moze jeszcze warto dodac, ze konkurs ABBUC na sprzet (hardware compo) nie mial rozstrzygniecia - ma malo prac nadeslanych. Nagroda 500 euro przeszla na nastepny rok. Do boju nasi wynalazcy!
Fandal 2006-10-31 12:14:05
I'm very suprised to see all the stuff here as I'm pretty sure you don't have agreement to publish it from respective authors.
From ABBUC rules: For all registered programs ABBUC will get the right of a premiere release on its magazine; the copyright will still remain by the author who can use his program freely after the contest.
I know Raster don't want any word wars as well as me but Head On was suposed to be sent to the public in the next Flop and not on this page...
Kaz 2006-10-31 12:25:10
OK, no more Head On on my page until Flop will be released.
Kaz 2006-10-31 13:00:39
Done - you can't download Head On from my site. I blocked it _only_ bacause I respect and like Raster. And of course nobody wants any wars. But you have to notice that:
a) game is not copyrighted (you can see on title screen),
b) I'm not ABBUC member, so I don't need to _know_ and to respect their rules if I could take programs from other sources, especially they are not copyrighted,
c) neither me nor you (on atari.fandal.cz) have permission for keeping many games still copyrighted on our sites. They are copyrighted even they are freeware or public domain sometimes. So I reacted only when somebody complain. Like now.
Are you allright with that?
raster/c.p.u. 2006-10-31 13:51:14
Hello my dear Atari friends.
I made game HeadOn because I like Atari programming and making of games. I sent it to Abbuc sw compo and I wanted publish it as freeware in our Atari Flop magazine.
So, because situation changed and It's important for me no flamewars or disagreements between Atarians,
I GIVE PERMISSIONS TO COPY AND PUBLISH MY GAME HEADON TO ALL PEOPLE HENCEFORWARD.
Please, keep peaceful. ;-)
Greetings, raster/c.p.u.
Kaz 2006-10-31 14:20:13
Raster, you're real Atarian in your heart. Big respect Raster and thank you for your permission.
cas 2006-10-31 17:34:43
Hi Atari friends,
Hi Kaz,
I think this overview of the ABBUC Software contest is a great service for the community.
regarding the remarks above, please respect the copyright of the programs and wait with publication until they are released ny the respecticve authors. I am not a lawyer, and I don't want to stress any laws here (I personally think the copyright law is b***s***it anyway), but please act in the "sense" of the rules.
The ABBUC members have decided to spend a considerable amout of the club money each year to support atari 8bit software development. All programmers joining the contest are obeying the rule that the 1st release is then for ABBUC members in form of a ABBUC special disk magazine.
ABBUC made a deliberate decision to keep the original author in charge whether, when and in what form to release the same software to the public after the contest.
I for myself are working on a general release of volksForth, including english documentation and updates source.
I would like to see that the "sense" of the rules is followed by waiting for the original authors to decide on the form and date of the release, and respect the authors decision. The authors have put considerable time into programming.
It also seems to me there is much misunderstanding between the polish Atari community and ABBUC members, mostly based on communication problems. We all have the same hobby and the same goals, we should find a way for better communication to prevent misunderstandings.
This includes communication on both sides.
And as Raster said: Please keep peaceful ;)
(@Raster: I voted 10 points for Head-On, it is clearly the best game this year! Much fun).
Carsten
cas 2006-10-31 18:12:48
Hi Kaz,
> ...especially they are not copyrighted,
this is nothing important in this case, but in general, when working with copyrighted materials, please be aware that (US) copyright laws has been changed in 1976 to make the (C) symbol optional (it was optional in all other countries before). So there is no need to express a copyright notice in a programm to claim copyright, copyright is "automatic" according to the Berne Convention of 1886.
In that past many atari programs had copyright notices to look "more professional", but a program is copyrighted from the beginning with or without any copyright sign or statement.
Wikipedia has a nice article on the bachground: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
I personally would encourage Atari programmers to place programms either under a copyleft (GNU) or BSD type license and state this, or to use a Creative Commons License (CC) --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons
to prevent confusion and to ensure that the current copyright laws are not preventing anyone to make good use of the software/product.
Carsten
P.S.: my post above is as a member of ABBUC. I'm not speaking for ABBUC.
cas 2006-10-31 20:21:18
Hi,
from an electronic translation of the above text above (sorry, the only way for me to read polish language) it looks like ABBUC hasn't published enough information on the contest. Because electronic translation is really misleading sometimes, can you (Kaz) give us (at ABBUC) some hint what we could improve (I understand Screenshots and Information on Authors country are requested)?
Also, if information is missing, please post in the ABBUC forum any question regarding the software contest (no problem to post in english there).
Carsten
CePe 2006-10-31 20:39:24
No Poles in ABBUC? Extremely funny! :D
Maybe u need some intro? ;P
mikey 2006-10-31 20:46:36
Could you be more informative? I don't get this whole thread here. What's wrong with publishing the software that was released anyway? So if the software was online for anybody to download, the following discussion is bullshit. Please shed some light.
epi 2006-10-31 22:44:50
Kaz: miałem na myśli programy, które zostały wysłane w tym roku, ale nie ukazały się na liście zwycięzców. Oczywiście jest to tylko echo osobistych przejść z konkursu w 2003 r., kiedy to faktycznie jedna z prac została wg organizatorów "zgubiona" (jak - nie wiem), dwóch innych nie potrafili skopiować/uruchomić, mimo dokładnej instrukcji po angielsku. Zresztą tego typu problemy naszych ulubionych klubowiczów należą już do kanonu legend, bez znajomości których nie zrozumiesz większości dowcipów na #atari8. :)
Kaz 2006-11-01 02:26:06
Carsten: thanks for your voice in our discussion, you\'re one of persons I respect for their nice work on Atari.
Let me explain my point of view:
1. 8-bit Atari programs are not copyrighted movies or music, which most of them are commercial. Nowadays Atari programs are usually freely distributed - no charges, no fees, no registration. How to recognize that one of game can\'t be freely published if it isn\'t clearly copyrighted and you can take it from other sources than author? I can\'t. I can react only when somebody is complaining. And I did.
2. Copyright means protection for personal and material rights. Has anybody tried to hide real program titles or changed names of authors (personal rights)? No. All names are the same like on ABBUC list. Has anybody lost his money, lost market for his product etc (material rights)? No. Authors (well, four of them) took money from ABBUC. Will they lose their money in future because of my publishing (material rights again)? No. They gonna set programs free, so that means no more money anyway. Did I take their rights to publish programs? No, they\'ve published programs anyway - sending on ABBUC compo and to ABBUC magazine (all of them) and to other places (not all of them). So, if you ask me to respect their copyrights, I can answer: I respect them fully, of course. I didn\'t take any rights from authors and I\'m not gonna take.
3. I only decided to block downloading of file because I personally respect people from Atari community like Fandal, Raster, you or other people, who are doing something for Atari. And I don\'t like flames, wars or other misunderstandings either. But to be honest I don\'t respect ABBUC rules because that\'s private agreement beetwen members of this club. I\'m not involved. :)
4. You are asking about some hint, what could be improved. I don\'t know, because I\'m not too familiar with ABBUC. I was looking for more information on your webpage, but I couldn\'t find anything interesting. Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2005 compo? No. Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2004, 2003 compo? No. God, we are living in XXI century, how long you gonna keep these \"secret\" programs I can find everywhere in internet? I understand that you wonna keep it for members, but you are not able to do it. After 10 minutes of googling I can send you links to your stuff from 2003, 2004 or whatever. Don't take me wrong - I don't want to change ABBUC, your rules or your behaviors. But I don't want to be a member of organisation whos members are voting to be separated from modern world. I'm giving my all Atari work for free. For everybody, who wants to take. Like most Atarians in Poland. That's it.
5. You are great personality Carsten (I know you from your posts on diffrents forums) and I fully agree with your words: \"It also seems to me there is much misunderstanding between the polish Atari community and ABBUC members, mostly based on communication problems. We all have the same hobby and the same goals, we should find a way for better communication to prevent misunderstandings.\" That\'s the reason why I helped to Andreas Bertelmann, ABBUC webmaster to prepare a new Polish translation of JHV video. That\'s why I keep in touch with other ABBUC members. And finally that\'s why you are writting your post here :) I hope and I\'m sure we will figure out all communication problems.
Kaz 2006-11-01 03:10:42
Epi - a czy moglbys konkretami pojechac? Jezeli nie chcesz sprawy poruszac publicznie, to mozesz do mnie na priv - maila znasz. Moze szef dzialu softwarowego z ich klubu zechce odpowiedziec na zarzuty.
sikor 2006-11-01 08:02:46
Epi, a możesz się tym programem "podzielić" (kolejna "wiatowa" premiera ;)
A może chodziło o to, aby znowy - po raz kolejny - nie wygrali polacy, bo to zniechęci innych ;)
cas 2006-11-01 09:59:14
Hi Kaz,
here we have some of the misunderstanding:
> Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2005 compo? No. Did you
> released stuff from ABBUC 2004, 2003 compo?
Of course ABBUC did. The results from the 2005 combo were online from October 2005 to September 2006, on the main pages, as were the results of the combos before. The results page on the main pages are always replaces by the recent competition. The old results can always been seen in the forum, were they are posted, and in the ABBUC Magazine.
I don't think ABBUC is not trying to keep anything secret here.
> Has anybody lost his money, lost market for his product
> etc (material rights)?
Thats not the point. Nobody is making money from Atari software theses days, and nobody tries. And no money is lost.
The authors keep all the rights on the programs turned into the competition anyway, and I think they will release it to the public sooner or later. But some authors might want to release a differnt from the ABBUC version (updated, different greetings, english instead of german text in program) version to the public.
> So, if you ask me to respect their copyrights, I can
> answer: I respect them fully, of course. I didn't take any
> rights from authors and I'm not gonna take.
As I said this is not about respecting the copyright, it's about repecting the authors decision about when to release the programs into the public. So like Raster wanted to release it in FLOP magazine. Creating such magazine on a regular basis is much work. unpaid, but hobby work.
And I guess we all do this because we also like others in the community to make use of this work. We invest time, and sometimes some money (in the case of hardware development), to make our Atari contributions good and maybe "outstanding".
I cannot speak for Raster, but I can think that FLOP Magazin is not a little less interesting/unique/has less original content because one program has already released before time. ( FLOP magazin is always interesting, but in the Atari world new software ages very fast, and some users of the FLOP magazin might now think "Oh, 'Head on', why do they put this old game on here, it was already released in the internet some weeks ago. Lame.")
Really, you're getting such comments, because there are always people out there that "don't get it".
This is frustrating, and you might killing motivation from Atari authors by releasing their work before time.
The release for ABBUC competition was only intended for ABBUC members, and the authors should decide how they release their programs to the general public.
Everyone is looking for original (=new) content for their publication (disk magazin, webpage, print magazine etc). Because only original content is what people interested. Nobody want's to see a rip off of another page/program/magazin, without added values.
You created original content by writing a complete overview of the ABBUC software combo 2006, with more information than there is on the ABBUC pages, with nice screenshots. That is why people come visit this page. That is your original content, your work. And that is what you want.
But you also publish the software here. Software, that was before only released in a closed group (ABBUC members) and to be released to the general public in several ways. Whith that you're creating original content for your website based on work of others. It is not original content for FLOP Magazin anymore.
In my case, the volksForth Homepage is volksforth.sf.net. The ATR Files are hosted on SourceForge, a well known Open Source Developers Portal with many services for Open Source Projects like distributed download servers, bug-tracking system and much more. SourceForge also has a Ranking of all thousands projects they are hosting. This ranking is based (part) on the number of downloads from the project.
The current ranking is 14,070, the best ranking was in September 2006 (after the C64/C16 release) on rank 3,175.
This ranking is part of my motivation, I want to break the 1000 barrier one time.
So I planned a good Atari release for November, with an updated software version, new sourcecode, additional information, with synchronous release announcements in all major atari forums and newgroups, containing a link to the SourceForge download servers. And then I sit and see the project to pass all the Linux projects ;)
However, now that the software might already released, less people will download from the sourceforge servers on release, because they already have a copy. The ranking is not as good as it can be, my motivation is less.
Don't take this example to serious. But there is a true part in it.
To finish: It's not about copyright, money, pride. It's about motivation. Be careful not to take away motivation from Atari contributors.
cas 2006-11-01 10:08:20
Hi Mikey,
>Could you be more informative? I don't get this whole thread
> here. What's wrong with publishing the software that was
>released anyway? So if the software was online for anybody
>to download, the following discussion is bullshit. Please shed
> some light.
The programs were turned in to the ABBUC Software contest. ABBUC has released the software on a disk magazin to their members in September (fair, as the Members are giging their money for 1000 Euro Price money). The competition voting was done by regular mail or on-site voting during the annual ABBUC meeting on 21st October 2006. The results were announced on the 21st of October and the day after on the ABBUC Webpage (Forum).
The rules state that the original Authors will keep the right to make a public release of the software (if they want) anytime after the results are announced.
The software was before 21st of October only available for ABBUC members and not for general download.
So creating an ATR image of the ABBUC Disk Magazin only intened for the members and posting it on the internet was not intended.
It is not a major thing, but might interfere with the plans of the authors to publish it as original content somwhere else.
Carsten
larek 2006-11-01 11:38:02
Ale się narobiło...
Tak sobie myślę, że całe szczęście, że Sudoku, Scorpions, Getris, Flowersmania, Nibbly czy Klony nie brały udział w konkursie. Pewnie do dnia dzisiejszego nie zobaczylibyśmy ich na oczy!
Kaz 2006-11-01 12:12:31
Trzeba chyba bedzie zorganizowac lepszy konkurs :)
cas 2006-11-01 12:40:21
Oh, please help me, online translation of polish language is just not unterstandable
Kaz said:
>Trzeba chyba bedzie zorganizowac lepszy konkurs :)
Choice one
Probably, it is necessary better competition bedzie zorganizowac
Choice two
It needs very like bedzie arrange for superior contest
Kaz 2006-11-01 13:08:50
Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
I said: It needs to organize better compo :)
What does it mean? I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo is ABBUC-wide compo in real. It seems your club is not interested in the best programs, games for Atari in the world like many people (including me) thought before. You prefere progs who are developed by ABBUC or for ABBUC. I understand that point of view - that's your club and you are spending money for this. But I think could be good to organize really world-wide competition for progs from all countries over the world.
I'll answer rest of your comments later, because I have to go out now :)
cas 2006-11-01 13:57:46
Hi Kaz,
>I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo is ABBUC-wide
> compo in real.I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo
> is ABBUC-wide compo in real.
That is not the intention. The past competitions have shown that most prices have been to non-ABBUC members. It's true that only ABBUC members can vote. But the past results have shown that the votes have been for non-ABBUC members, who won prices. There is no preference of programms written in ABBUC or for ABBUC.
The ABBUC only thing is that the programms are first (in September) published on the ABBUC magazin disk for ABBUC members, and that ABBUC members vote for the competition. End of October, depending on the Authors, the programs are freely available.
As for the voting, that is fully transparent for everyone joining on the annual meeting (everyone is welcome there). Votesheets are given out and then collected in the afternoon and counted. Each ABBUC member can vote 1 to 10 points for each of the programs in the competition.
However, a real world-wide competition from a equally respected organizer would be good. (I'm not sure why that is, but I sometimes have the feeling ABBUC is not liked in poland). Maybe the organizer can be Atari-Age, maybe someone else.
The basic idea of the ABBUC contest is to motivate programmers to write new programs for the Atari 8bit. Another competition = more motivation.
When ABBUC started the internal discussion on the Contest in 2002 my opinion was that real programmers will publish and release anyway, and that there is no need for a competition with prices.
But since then, I changed my mind. It's not the money that is the motivation (not for me at least), but the deadline is giving some incentive to the programmer to finish half-written programms that are ideling around. And the competitive factor is fun.
As for the money, I will use the price money to invest in new hardware to port volksForth. For example I have just gotten a WDC 65816 Machine from the US and that took half the price money for the EU-US import tax alone :(
cas 2006-11-01 14:00:07
> Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
The first one was from
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml
The 2nd one I cannot find anymore
mikey 2006-11-01 15:13:11
cas, ok I get it now, the software leaked from one of ABBUC members apparently.
epi 2006-11-01 15:15:51
Kaz, Sikor: Chyba nie wyraziłem się dość jasno: o tegorocznych programach z .pl nie wiem nic, natomiast sam w 2003 r. wysłałem kilka a tylko jeden został przyjęty, ponieważ z pozostałymi organizatorzy mieli problemy, jak już wyżej napisałem. Sprawa jest już dawno załatwiona, nie mamy sobie z żadnymi szefami już nic do wyjaśnienia, za to czarli bombardował mnie przez jakiś czas potem kilogramami wazeliny. ;)
A to co wtedy wysłałem nie jest żadną tajemnicą - xunzipa, TipView, sapemu i NeoTrackera znacie wszyscy.
jellonek 2006-11-01 15:23:29
Carsten, do have your's volksForth something from http://volksforth.sourceforge.net/ ?
if so - it's freelly available from sf.net...
if not - why you are useing name reserved nearly 20 years?
cas 2006-11-01 15:57:23
> Carsten, do have your's volksForth something from
> http://volksforth.sourceforge.net/ ?
As I wrote above, that is the project page of volksForth. It's a project of German Forth Interest Group "Forth Gesellschaft". It has been developed from 1981 to 1989 and was silent from 1989 to 2005. In 2005 I took the existing stuff, scanned the handbooks, secured the sources, started updating the volksForth version to match modern Forth standards and started porting to new systems. One new system is the volksForth Atari 8bit.
volksForth (all Versions) is free/open source software. The license is the BSD License. See file "LICENSE" on the disks. The Atari version on the download servers is the version that was in the contest. However there will be a new version out in mid of November, and that will be an updated one, and that will be announced widely.
xxl 2006-11-01 18:34:48
czyli vforth byl opublikowany wczesniej na sourceforge czy dopiero bedzie ?
cas 2006-11-01 22:29:08
> Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
The second translation was from http://www.poltran.com/
cas 2006-11-02 10:22:32
> cas, ok I get it now, the software leaked from one of ABBUC
> members apparently.
Yes, of that is the root cause.
We shoudln't take this whole issue too seriously, life is too short to fight battles like this ;)
Carsten
jellonek 2006-11-02 18:35:51
cas: i'm waiting 4 new version ;)
cas 2006-11-07 14:22:25
Hi,
we have now a real (not electronic) translation of the above text, and it makes now much more sense to us ;)
To clarify: All entries to the ABBUC competition must be send in by the authors. The reason that we didn't had any polish entries this year is because we didn't received any. We would really liked to see polish entries in the competition, like the games and programs mentioned above, which I expect would have been in the upper range of the results (as the years before).
Please, programmers, send in your programs next time (it don't hurt).
Carsten
MWK 2007-01-11 15:38:15
a mi tam sie najbardziej spodobał "Voyage to Home", mistrzowska giera i jeszcze lepsza kochana muzyczka toważysząca nam w drodze powrotnej do "domu"... w sumie jedyne co bym zmienił to szybkość manewrowania stateczkiem, no ale w sumie heh jesteśmy w kosmosie (albo licho jedno wie gdzie jeszcze). Pozdro
koszulkowy.pl 2007-04-15 11:10:19
Obczajcie sobie koszulke ATARI na www.koszulkowy.pl
http://www.koszulkowy.pl/atari-p-130.html
Ja myślę, że jednak kilkanaście prac z .pl zostało wysłanych na konkurs, ale organizatorzy nie potrafili odczytać zawartości .atr-ów, rozpakować .zip-ów, skonfigurować pamięci, wczytać programów wymagających DOSa, czy też właściwie podłączyć dżojstika, za co zdyskwalifikowali owe prace. ;) Pozdro, "były uczestnik" ;)
Kaz 2006-10-30 03:26:15
Z jednej strony to tłumaczy brak obecności polskich programów. Z drugiej - to czemu nie było do nich jasnej i prostej instrukcji (po angielsku, ze o niemieckiej nie wspomne)? Chyba, ze byly, to wtedy trzeba by sie zaczac martwic o poziom umyslowy oceniajacych...
mikey 2006-10-30 04:21:27
Kaz uwierz, to drugie!
sikor 2006-10-30 07:56:01
Epi, a można od Was te programy jakoś dostać...?
xxl 2006-10-30 08:40:31
Head On wyglada smakowicie. czasem ciupie w to na MAME :-)
Sikor 2006-10-30 08:58:00
Kaz: jakiś błąd w skrypcie masz czy co? Po odświeżeniu zdublowało posta...?
Kaz 2006-10-30 09:39:47
Sikor - blad raczej w "skrypcie" przegladarki ;) Podwojne posty oznaczaja, ze nikt ich nie przegapi :))) Zaraz usune.
sikor 2006-10-30 10:24:32
O.K. - dzięki. Po prostu głupio to nieco wygladało. A wygenerował jakby co FireFox ;)
Kaz 2006-10-30 10:26:34
To zdaje sie (nie znam sie, tak mi powiedziano) nie od konkretnej przegladarki (bo moja Opera tez tak robi), ale od ustawien glebokosci cash-owania w przegladarce.
xxl 2006-10-30 10:31:01
nie znam sie ale moze pomoglo by: po dodaniu komentarza skrypt powinien przekierowac na newsa tak, zeby ewentualne odswierzenie i wyslanie drugi raz formularza nie przynioslo efektow ?
Kaz 2006-10-30 10:42:02
Moze byc - przekaze uwagi Zydze, bo jak juz wspomnialem - ja tu tylko sprzatam.
dhor 2006-10-30 11:36:49
Z powyższych .... Plague Attack :)
Head On by było niezłe, jakby nieco popracować nad formą.
Cavernrunner niegrywalny - lata ten chłopek po planszy jak potłuczony.
Lightup - przydałby się opis w grze, co robić ( nie czytałem .txt bo prawdziwi twardziele nie czytają ) - tak to nie umiem w to grać.
A na Fortha jestem za stary :)
Kaz 2006-10-30 14:50:22
Niejaki Kamules vel Filorator vel Ozzy vel Czarodziej dostal bana na swoj IP za caloksztalt. Dlaczego niektorym wydaje sie, ze buraczenie w internecie to taka fajna zabawa? Wszystkie posty powyzszego z tego watku zostaly usuniete.
xxl 2006-10-30 15:29:06
pozycja 2 i 3, tylko 1 punkt roznicy, alez musiala byc walka
Jar-eck 2006-10-30 15:58:38
Świat się nigdy nie uwolni od kretynów....
Co z pytaniem Sikora odnośnie Waszych produkcji ?? :)
Kaz 2006-10-30 16:42:10
Wlasnie, Epi - jakie produkcje i w jakich latach miales na mysli?
Gury 2006-10-30 17:18:21
Hi Kaz,
Thanks for putting ABBUC 2006 games and other stuff for download.
Allas 2006-10-30 19:01:41
Hi all, it's a pity I cant understand polish language. But it appears the article said Im from Chile. That's not true. I'm from Perú. (southamerican country at the north of Chile)
Regards,
Mario Caillahuz
Kaz 2006-10-30 22:08:55
Sorry Mario for my mistake - I'm just fixing...
Kaz 2006-10-30 22:11:32
Mario, country just fixed, sorry for that again. I didn't realize that is any Atari community in Peru.
Vasco/Tristesse 2006-10-30 22:15:33
Mario: we know, where Peru is ;)
Kaz 2006-10-31 02:10:49
Moze jeszcze warto dodac, ze konkurs ABBUC na sprzet (hardware compo) nie mial rozstrzygniecia - ma malo prac nadeslanych. Nagroda 500 euro przeszla na nastepny rok. Do boju nasi wynalazcy!
Fandal 2006-10-31 12:14:05
I'm very suprised to see all the stuff here as I'm pretty sure you don't have agreement to publish it from respective authors.
From ABBUC rules: For all registered programs ABBUC will get the right of a premiere release on its magazine; the copyright will still remain by the author who can use his program freely after the contest.
I know Raster don't want any word wars as well as me but Head On was suposed to be sent to the public in the next Flop and not on this page...
Kaz 2006-10-31 12:25:10
OK, no more Head On on my page until Flop will be released.
Kaz 2006-10-31 13:00:39
Done - you can't download Head On from my site. I blocked it _only_ bacause I respect and like Raster. And of course nobody wants any wars. But you have to notice that:
a) game is not copyrighted (you can see on title screen),
b) I'm not ABBUC member, so I don't need to _know_ and to respect their rules if I could take programs from other sources, especially they are not copyrighted,
c) neither me nor you (on atari.fandal.cz) have permission for keeping many games still copyrighted on our sites. They are copyrighted even they are freeware or public domain sometimes. So I reacted only when somebody complain. Like now.
Are you allright with that?
raster/c.p.u. 2006-10-31 13:51:14
Hello my dear Atari friends.
I made game HeadOn because I like Atari programming and making of games. I sent it to Abbuc sw compo and I wanted publish it as freeware in our Atari Flop magazine.
So, because situation changed and It's important for me no flamewars or disagreements between Atarians,
I GIVE PERMISSIONS TO COPY AND PUBLISH MY GAME HEADON TO ALL PEOPLE HENCEFORWARD.
Please, keep peaceful. ;-)
Greetings, raster/c.p.u.
Kaz 2006-10-31 14:20:13
Raster, you're real Atarian in your heart. Big respect Raster and thank you for your permission.
cas 2006-10-31 17:34:43
Hi Atari friends,
Hi Kaz,
I think this overview of the ABBUC Software contest is a great service for the community.
regarding the remarks above, please respect the copyright of the programs and wait with publication until they are released ny the respecticve authors. I am not a lawyer, and I don't want to stress any laws here (I personally think the copyright law is b***s***it anyway), but please act in the "sense" of the rules.
The ABBUC members have decided to spend a considerable amout of the club money each year to support atari 8bit software development. All programmers joining the contest are obeying the rule that the 1st release is then for ABBUC members in form of a ABBUC special disk magazine.
ABBUC made a deliberate decision to keep the original author in charge whether, when and in what form to release the same software to the public after the contest.
I for myself are working on a general release of volksForth, including english documentation and updates source.
I would like to see that the "sense" of the rules is followed by waiting for the original authors to decide on the form and date of the release, and respect the authors decision. The authors have put considerable time into programming.
It also seems to me there is much misunderstanding between the polish Atari community and ABBUC members, mostly based on communication problems. We all have the same hobby and the same goals, we should find a way for better communication to prevent misunderstandings.
This includes communication on both sides.
And as Raster said: Please keep peaceful ;)
(@Raster: I voted 10 points for Head-On, it is clearly the best game this year! Much fun).
Carsten
cas 2006-10-31 18:12:48
Hi Kaz,
> ...especially they are not copyrighted,
this is nothing important in this case, but in general, when working with copyrighted materials, please be aware that (US) copyright laws has been changed in 1976 to make the (C) symbol optional (it was optional in all other countries before). So there is no need to express a copyright notice in a programm to claim copyright, copyright is "automatic" according to the Berne Convention of 1886.
In that past many atari programs had copyright notices to look "more professional", but a program is copyrighted from the beginning with or without any copyright sign or statement.
Wikipedia has a nice article on the bachground: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
I personally would encourage Atari programmers to place programms either under a copyleft (GNU) or BSD type license and state this, or to use a Creative Commons License (CC) --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons
to prevent confusion and to ensure that the current copyright laws are not preventing anyone to make good use of the software/product.
Carsten
P.S.: my post above is as a member of ABBUC. I'm not speaking for ABBUC.
cas 2006-10-31 20:21:18
Hi,
from an electronic translation of the above text above (sorry, the only way for me to read polish language) it looks like ABBUC hasn't published enough information on the contest. Because electronic translation is really misleading sometimes, can you (Kaz) give us (at ABBUC) some hint what we could improve (I understand Screenshots and Information on Authors country are requested)?
Also, if information is missing, please post in the ABBUC forum any question regarding the software contest (no problem to post in english there).
Carsten
CePe 2006-10-31 20:39:24
No Poles in ABBUC? Extremely funny! :D
Maybe u need some intro? ;P
mikey 2006-10-31 20:46:36
Could you be more informative? I don't get this whole thread here. What's wrong with publishing the software that was released anyway? So if the software was online for anybody to download, the following discussion is bullshit. Please shed some light.
epi 2006-10-31 22:44:50
Kaz: miałem na myśli programy, które zostały wysłane w tym roku, ale nie ukazały się na liście zwycięzców. Oczywiście jest to tylko echo osobistych przejść z konkursu w 2003 r., kiedy to faktycznie jedna z prac została wg organizatorów "zgubiona" (jak - nie wiem), dwóch innych nie potrafili skopiować/uruchomić, mimo dokładnej instrukcji po angielsku. Zresztą tego typu problemy naszych ulubionych klubowiczów należą już do kanonu legend, bez znajomości których nie zrozumiesz większości dowcipów na #atari8. :)
Kaz 2006-11-01 02:26:06
Carsten: thanks for your voice in our discussion, you\'re one of persons I respect for their nice work on Atari.
Let me explain my point of view:
1. 8-bit Atari programs are not copyrighted movies or music, which most of them are commercial. Nowadays Atari programs are usually freely distributed - no charges, no fees, no registration. How to recognize that one of game can\'t be freely published if it isn\'t clearly copyrighted and you can take it from other sources than author? I can\'t. I can react only when somebody is complaining. And I did.
2. Copyright means protection for personal and material rights. Has anybody tried to hide real program titles or changed names of authors (personal rights)? No. All names are the same like on ABBUC list. Has anybody lost his money, lost market for his product etc (material rights)? No. Authors (well, four of them) took money from ABBUC. Will they lose their money in future because of my publishing (material rights again)? No. They gonna set programs free, so that means no more money anyway. Did I take their rights to publish programs? No, they\'ve published programs anyway - sending on ABBUC compo and to ABBUC magazine (all of them) and to other places (not all of them). So, if you ask me to respect their copyrights, I can answer: I respect them fully, of course. I didn\'t take any rights from authors and I\'m not gonna take.
3. I only decided to block downloading of file because I personally respect people from Atari community like Fandal, Raster, you or other people, who are doing something for Atari. And I don\'t like flames, wars or other misunderstandings either. But to be honest I don\'t respect ABBUC rules because that\'s private agreement beetwen members of this club. I\'m not involved. :)
4. You are asking about some hint, what could be improved. I don\'t know, because I\'m not too familiar with ABBUC. I was looking for more information on your webpage, but I couldn\'t find anything interesting. Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2005 compo? No. Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2004, 2003 compo? No. God, we are living in XXI century, how long you gonna keep these \"secret\" programs I can find everywhere in internet? I understand that you wonna keep it for members, but you are not able to do it. After 10 minutes of googling I can send you links to your stuff from 2003, 2004 or whatever. Don't take me wrong - I don't want to change ABBUC, your rules or your behaviors. But I don't want to be a member of organisation whos members are voting to be separated from modern world. I'm giving my all Atari work for free. For everybody, who wants to take. Like most Atarians in Poland. That's it.
5. You are great personality Carsten (I know you from your posts on diffrents forums) and I fully agree with your words: \"It also seems to me there is much misunderstanding between the polish Atari community and ABBUC members, mostly based on communication problems. We all have the same hobby and the same goals, we should find a way for better communication to prevent misunderstandings.\" That\'s the reason why I helped to Andreas Bertelmann, ABBUC webmaster to prepare a new Polish translation of JHV video. That\'s why I keep in touch with other ABBUC members. And finally that\'s why you are writting your post here :) I hope and I\'m sure we will figure out all communication problems.
Kaz 2006-11-01 03:10:42
Epi - a czy moglbys konkretami pojechac? Jezeli nie chcesz sprawy poruszac publicznie, to mozesz do mnie na priv - maila znasz. Moze szef dzialu softwarowego z ich klubu zechce odpowiedziec na zarzuty.
sikor 2006-11-01 08:02:46
Epi, a możesz się tym programem "podzielić" (kolejna "wiatowa" premiera ;)
A może chodziło o to, aby znowy - po raz kolejny - nie wygrali polacy, bo to zniechęci innych ;)
cas 2006-11-01 09:59:14
Hi Kaz,
here we have some of the misunderstanding:
> Did you released stuff from ABBUC 2005 compo? No. Did you
> released stuff from ABBUC 2004, 2003 compo?
Of course ABBUC did. The results from the 2005 combo were online from October 2005 to September 2006, on the main pages, as were the results of the combos before. The results page on the main pages are always replaces by the recent competition. The old results can always been seen in the forum, were they are posted, and in the ABBUC Magazine.
I don't think ABBUC is not trying to keep anything secret here.
> Has anybody lost his money, lost market for his product
> etc (material rights)?
Thats not the point. Nobody is making money from Atari software theses days, and nobody tries. And no money is lost.
The authors keep all the rights on the programs turned into the competition anyway, and I think they will release it to the public sooner or later. But some authors might want to release a differnt from the ABBUC version (updated, different greetings, english instead of german text in program) version to the public.
> So, if you ask me to respect their copyrights, I can
> answer: I respect them fully, of course. I didn't take any
> rights from authors and I'm not gonna take.
As I said this is not about respecting the copyright, it's about repecting the authors decision about when to release the programs into the public. So like Raster wanted to release it in FLOP magazine. Creating such magazine on a regular basis is much work. unpaid, but hobby work.
And I guess we all do this because we also like others in the community to make use of this work. We invest time, and sometimes some money (in the case of hardware development), to make our Atari contributions good and maybe "outstanding".
I cannot speak for Raster, but I can think that FLOP Magazin is not a little less interesting/unique/has less original content because one program has already released before time. ( FLOP magazin is always interesting, but in the Atari world new software ages very fast, and some users of the FLOP magazin might now think "Oh, 'Head on', why do they put this old game on here, it was already released in the internet some weeks ago. Lame.")
Really, you're getting such comments, because there are always people out there that "don't get it".
This is frustrating, and you might killing motivation from Atari authors by releasing their work before time.
The release for ABBUC competition was only intended for ABBUC members, and the authors should decide how they release their programs to the general public.
Everyone is looking for original (=new) content for their publication (disk magazin, webpage, print magazine etc). Because only original content is what people interested. Nobody want's to see a rip off of another page/program/magazin, without added values.
You created original content by writing a complete overview of the ABBUC software combo 2006, with more information than there is on the ABBUC pages, with nice screenshots. That is why people come visit this page. That is your original content, your work. And that is what you want.
But you also publish the software here. Software, that was before only released in a closed group (ABBUC members) and to be released to the general public in several ways. Whith that you're creating original content for your website based on work of others. It is not original content for FLOP Magazin anymore.
In my case, the volksForth Homepage is volksforth.sf.net. The ATR Files are hosted on SourceForge, a well known Open Source Developers Portal with many services for Open Source Projects like distributed download servers, bug-tracking system and much more. SourceForge also has a Ranking of all thousands projects they are hosting. This ranking is based (part) on the number of downloads from the project.
The current ranking is 14,070, the best ranking was in September 2006 (after the C64/C16 release) on rank 3,175.
This ranking is part of my motivation, I want to break the 1000 barrier one time.
So I planned a good Atari release for November, with an updated software version, new sourcecode, additional information, with synchronous release announcements in all major atari forums and newgroups, containing a link to the SourceForge download servers. And then I sit and see the project to pass all the Linux projects ;)
However, now that the software might already released, less people will download from the sourceforge servers on release, because they already have a copy. The ranking is not as good as it can be, my motivation is less.
Don't take this example to serious. But there is a true part in it.
To finish: It's not about copyright, money, pride. It's about motivation. Be careful not to take away motivation from Atari contributors.
cas 2006-11-01 10:08:20
Hi Mikey,
>Could you be more informative? I don't get this whole thread
> here. What's wrong with publishing the software that was
>released anyway? So if the software was online for anybody
>to download, the following discussion is bullshit. Please shed
> some light.
The programs were turned in to the ABBUC Software contest. ABBUC has released the software on a disk magazin to their members in September (fair, as the Members are giging their money for 1000 Euro Price money). The competition voting was done by regular mail or on-site voting during the annual ABBUC meeting on 21st October 2006. The results were announced on the 21st of October and the day after on the ABBUC Webpage (Forum).
The rules state that the original Authors will keep the right to make a public release of the software (if they want) anytime after the results are announced.
The software was before 21st of October only available for ABBUC members and not for general download.
So creating an ATR image of the ABBUC Disk Magazin only intened for the members and posting it on the internet was not intended.
It is not a major thing, but might interfere with the plans of the authors to publish it as original content somwhere else.
Carsten
larek 2006-11-01 11:38:02
Ale się narobiło...
Tak sobie myślę, że całe szczęście, że Sudoku, Scorpions, Getris, Flowersmania, Nibbly czy Klony nie brały udział w konkursie. Pewnie do dnia dzisiejszego nie zobaczylibyśmy ich na oczy!
Kaz 2006-11-01 12:12:31
Trzeba chyba bedzie zorganizowac lepszy konkurs :)
cas 2006-11-01 12:40:21
Oh, please help me, online translation of polish language is just not unterstandable
Kaz said:
>Trzeba chyba bedzie zorganizowac lepszy konkurs :)
Choice one
Probably, it is necessary better competition bedzie zorganizowac
Choice two
It needs very like bedzie arrange for superior contest
Kaz 2006-11-01 13:08:50
Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
I said: It needs to organize better compo :)
What does it mean? I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo is ABBUC-wide compo in real. It seems your club is not interested in the best programs, games for Atari in the world like many people (including me) thought before. You prefere progs who are developed by ABBUC or for ABBUC. I understand that point of view - that's your club and you are spending money for this. But I think could be good to organize really world-wide competition for progs from all countries over the world.
I'll answer rest of your comments later, because I have to go out now :)
cas 2006-11-01 13:57:46
Hi Kaz,
>I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo is ABBUC-wide
> compo in real.I'm thinking now that world-wide ABBUC compo
> is ABBUC-wide compo in real.
That is not the intention. The past competitions have shown that most prices have been to non-ABBUC members. It's true that only ABBUC members can vote. But the past results have shown that the votes have been for non-ABBUC members, who won prices. There is no preference of programms written in ABBUC or for ABBUC.
The ABBUC only thing is that the programms are first (in September) published on the ABBUC magazin disk for ABBUC members, and that ABBUC members vote for the competition. End of October, depending on the Authors, the programs are freely available.
As for the voting, that is fully transparent for everyone joining on the annual meeting (everyone is welcome there). Votesheets are given out and then collected in the afternoon and counted. Each ABBUC member can vote 1 to 10 points for each of the programs in the competition.
However, a real world-wide competition from a equally respected organizer would be good. (I'm not sure why that is, but I sometimes have the feeling ABBUC is not liked in poland). Maybe the organizer can be Atari-Age, maybe someone else.
The basic idea of the ABBUC contest is to motivate programmers to write new programs for the Atari 8bit. Another competition = more motivation.
When ABBUC started the internal discussion on the Contest in 2002 my opinion was that real programmers will publish and release anyway, and that there is no need for a competition with prices.
But since then, I changed my mind. It's not the money that is the motivation (not for me at least), but the deadline is giving some incentive to the programmer to finish half-written programms that are ideling around. And the competitive factor is fun.
As for the money, I will use the price money to invest in new hardware to port volksForth. For example I have just gotten a WDC 65816 Machine from the US and that took half the price money for the EU-US import tax alone :(
cas 2006-11-01 14:00:07
> Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
The first one was from
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml
The 2nd one I cannot find anymore
mikey 2006-11-01 15:13:11
cas, ok I get it now, the software leaked from one of ABBUC members apparently.
epi 2006-11-01 15:15:51
Kaz, Sikor: Chyba nie wyraziłem się dość jasno: o tegorocznych programach z .pl nie wiem nic, natomiast sam w 2003 r. wysłałem kilka a tylko jeden został przyjęty, ponieważ z pozostałymi organizatorzy mieli problemy, jak już wyżej napisałem. Sprawa jest już dawno załatwiona, nie mamy sobie z żadnymi szefami już nic do wyjaśnienia, za to czarli bombardował mnie przez jakiś czas potem kilogramami wazeliny. ;)
A to co wtedy wysłałem nie jest żadną tajemnicą - xunzipa, TipView, sapemu i NeoTrackera znacie wszyscy.
jellonek 2006-11-01 15:23:29
Carsten, do have your's volksForth something from http://volksforth.sourceforge.net/ ?
if so - it's freelly available from sf.net...
if not - why you are useing name reserved nearly 20 years?
cas 2006-11-01 15:57:23
> Carsten, do have your's volksForth something from
> http://volksforth.sourceforge.net/ ?
As I wrote above, that is the project page of volksForth. It's a project of German Forth Interest Group "Forth Gesellschaft". It has been developed from 1981 to 1989 and was silent from 1989 to 2005. In 2005 I took the existing stuff, scanned the handbooks, secured the sources, started updating the volksForth version to match modern Forth standards and started porting to new systems. One new system is the volksForth Atari 8bit.
volksForth (all Versions) is free/open source software. The license is the BSD License. See file "LICENSE" on the disks. The Atari version on the download servers is the version that was in the contest. However there will be a new version out in mid of November, and that will be an updated one, and that will be announced widely.
xxl 2006-11-01 18:34:48
czyli vforth byl opublikowany wczesniej na sourceforge czy dopiero bedzie ?
cas 2006-11-01 22:29:08
> Carsten, could you give me a link to this translator?
The second translation was from http://www.poltran.com/
cas 2006-11-02 10:22:32
> cas, ok I get it now, the software leaked from one of ABBUC
> members apparently.
Yes, of that is the root cause.
We shoudln't take this whole issue too seriously, life is too short to fight battles like this ;)
Carsten
jellonek 2006-11-02 18:35:51
cas: i'm waiting 4 new version ;)
cas 2006-11-07 14:22:25
Hi,
we have now a real (not electronic) translation of the above text, and it makes now much more sense to us ;)
To clarify: All entries to the ABBUC competition must be send in by the authors. The reason that we didn't had any polish entries this year is because we didn't received any. We would really liked to see polish entries in the competition, like the games and programs mentioned above, which I expect would have been in the upper range of the results (as the years before).
Please, programmers, send in your programs next time (it don't hurt).
Carsten
MWK 2007-01-11 15:38:15
a mi tam sie najbardziej spodobał "Voyage to Home", mistrzowska giera i jeszcze lepsza kochana muzyczka toważysząca nam w drodze powrotnej do "domu"... w sumie jedyne co bym zmienił to szybkość manewrowania stateczkiem, no ale w sumie heh jesteśmy w kosmosie (albo licho jedno wie gdzie jeszcze). Pozdro
koszulkowy.pl 2007-04-15 11:10:19
Obczajcie sobie koszulke ATARI na www.koszulkowy.pl
http://www.koszulkowy.pl/atari-p-130.html