SID i POKEY - Forum Atarum

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Vanilla 1.1.4 jest produktem Lussumo. Więcej informacji: Dokumentacja, Forum.

    • 1: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    @emkay: I can explain you reason of no reaction :) Some people on beginning appreciate that what you're doing, but later, like me, they would like to do the same and... don't know how :) That's why I asked you for some details - ok, you told some, cleared main idea, but it forces me to do experiment to know details. You said - hard to explain - not true :) Show me step by step - or just link somewhere one of that examples as .rmt to let me look not just at patterns, but also instruments, etc. One picture = thousand words.

    Maybe even tracker would be created, we had a lot of talented programmers, but they simply don't know how that fx support should look like :)

    @adv: demo or intro is not enough - the same I can see on youtube files.

    Let's talk about - I have now my RMT opened - show me s o m e t h i n g - print screen, params' values etc.
    • 2:
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    True, true. I have always treated your experiments (@emkay) as a curious things.

    Appreciated (really) and went to other things.

    I have even planned to disassemble your music posts, but believe me no real kick to do this.
    • 3: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    Possibly guys who use the native trackers on the A8, could get the wanted results more straight, as the emulations don't really suite to the original. POKEY is simply more stable... an, well the original ;)

    It's really that simple.
    If you want to use this "modulation", you have to use both channels of a filter, and to put the produced waves as close as possible together.
    Just try to put the 1st two steps of an instrument, playing the highest pitch on both channels (low volume) , so you have it. Then you can try to play with the pitches on one of the channels...
    • 4: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    It's also simple physics. The offset is a result of the timespan that the switch is lasting.

    Let's say you have value 120.... one pitch up to 121 ... and in the next step turn it back to 120. So you get a fixed offset. But the sound only will get reproducable, if you did that "waveform enclosing" with the highest pitch on the start of an instrument.
    • 5:
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    @Wieczor I agree. :P
    Maybe its possible to make music for demo or intro with advantages you have showed here to encourage programmers or musicians to make a full working tracker with serious POKEY sounding you have writen above.

    @Emkay I`m not sure if that what you have written is enough. Some examples would make it clear.
    • 6: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    I'm encouraged enough :) Now I need details :)
    • 7: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    Listen to the RMT and comparre to the SAP version. There a re huge differences...

    ... the differences are also with the real thing. As you might know, you can do much more stable sawtooth sounds...
    • 8:
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    @emkay We need example on one of your music. Step by step - like for stubborn, stupid child.
    • 9: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    In this video I switch to the referrig instrument.

    Have a look where I used the "1" command at the envelope.
    1st one sets the highest pitch, 2ns one makes an offset.
    • 10: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    For a stubborn child it might be better to learn physics, to understand what's going on ;)
    It's a part of what the SID has that makes it easier to understand for musicians. The physical part is hidden behind a musician friendly programming interface.
    If you have special questions, I try to make a fitting video.
    • 11: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime11 Sep 2012
    @emkay; I learned physics on quite advanced level and I know how sound can be modulated by other - actually it's more maths than physics :) That what I needed to understand is how to do it in practice on POKEY, cause it's related to its special behavior at certain circumstances - it's not "physically" obvious if you know what I mean. Now it's a little bit more revealed, I'll try to make some experiments and probably then will come with special questions :) Now after showing examples you started to show us very useful and specific stuff - thanks for that. It will bring probably more effect than just showing music played :)
    • 12: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime12 Sep 2012
    The whole math isn't useful , if the physics were not clearly defined, to build the maths on it ;)
    As I wrote. SID was build to hide the physics behind a specificated user interface.
    Hopefully, IF "maths" around POKEY were clearly defined, we'd get a fully working .... and compatible emulation.
    It's really funny. The "simple" POKEY chip still hasn't got a serious emulation, while SID emulations sound 99% like SID.... sometimes even 100% ...
    As you know, there is no 100% SID sound due to the different Revisions of that chip(s).
    • 13: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime12 Sep 2012
    Maths, pure maths - physics appears at speaker level - waveform converted to air vibrations :) Now you see I discovered what you mean - curious thing with that proper channel initialization - 2 first volume values at minimal with different distortion - it helps sound become stable, probably to drive square wave generator into proper period.

    Some of instruments seem to be still unstable but now I have base to experiment by myself :) And turn POKEY to SID :)
    • 14: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime12 Sep 2012
    Not math at 1st ;)
    The distorsions were just to have the switching voice less recognizable.... it's just some noise, not a high tone.
    Low volume is also for having the noise reduced.
    The stability comes from the high pitch. POKEY generates the waves and finish them , before playing the next one, so the offset between the voices varies on and on. Playing the high pitch, makes the waves closing together, until they cancel each other. From that point you can adjust the offset with maths.
    • 15: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime14 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    Another problem is the manifold instruments that get needed. Every slight change on an instrument make it necessary to put one or two extra instruments in.

    A dedicated Tracker would allow to manage all fx independent from any instrument.

    Not to forget the extra patterns to add the additional instruments...
    • 16: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime23 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    This one uses no corrections on the main voice, to have no gaps there.
    Playing with straight filter modulations...

    Interestingly, this sounds similar in RMT and SAP...
    ... well... almost. ;)
    • 17: CommentAuthors2325
    • CommentTime24 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    W kawałku Floeten Musik (od 1:50) można usłyszeć nietypową zabawę dźwiękiem, coś jakby samplowany flet, który raczej samplem nie jest. Moim zdaniem to dla uszu mocno ciekawy efekt i nie wiem czemu niespotykany w demach czy grach.

    • 18: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime24 Sep 2012
    To jest czysty sinus :) De gustibus, dla moich uszu "mocno ciekawy" oznacza tu ciężki do zniesienia :) Ppodobnie zrobiony podobnie jak sample czy softsynth czyli modulacja obwiedni wysokiej częstotliwości. Przypuszczalnie zabiera sporą część ramki.
    • 19: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime24 Sep 2012
    The "flute" is simple programming on the real machine. The emulation doesn't support it.
    No huge CPU needed for that.
    • 20: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime25 Sep 2012
    No comment ;)
    • 21:
    • CommentTime27 Sep 2012
    Solo Kazuki otworzył na wątek, w którym rozprawia się z AY/YM i POKEYem.
    • 22: CommentAuthors2325
    • CommentTime27 Sep 2012
    Tutaj Pokey brzmi podobnie do YM. Ktoś kojarzy może jeszcze coś podobnego?

    • 23:
    • CommentTime27 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    No to teraz masz przechlapane, on tak łatwo nie odpuści. :) Wiem coś o tym bo osobiście przyjaźnię się z tym gamoniem przeszło 15 lat, to właśnie on dawno temu zaczarował mnie rozbudowaną A1200 i namówił do zakupu.
    • 24:
    • CommentTime27 Sep 2012
    @Tenchi "...zaczarował mnie rozbudowaną A1200 i namówił do zakupu"

    Czyżby era emulatorów dobiegała końca?

    Ps. SID "najlepszym układem jest", a fortepian to najlepsze klawisze.
    • 25: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime27 Sep 2012
    • 26:
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    Wręcz przeciwnie - patrz świeży wpis w wątku "Nie samym Atari człowiek żyje...". Ale nie da się ukryć że owa era właśnie od niej się zaczęła - przecież ta Amisia wciąż stoi u mnie na półce, w pełni sprawna i gotowa do działania w każdej chwili. :) Tak jeszcze do siedmiu lat wstecz wystarczała mi w zupełności, jednak w końcu zapragnąłem poznawać gry na nieco bardziej zaawansowane emulatory nowszych platform i to był jeden z kluczowych powodów dla których przesiadłem się na trochę mocniejszy sprzęt. Padło na klona ze względu na stosunek jego ceny do możliwości - za dalsze rozbudowanie klasycznej Amigi lub jej nowszy model musiałbym sporo więcej zapłacić, a i tak zapewne zawiodłaby mnie pod względem oprogramowania (nie chce mi się wierzyć aby ktoś napisał na nią emulator przykładowo PC-98, FM Townsa czy jakiejś innej egzotycznej platformy tego typu). Gdyby nie ten drobny problem to kto wie - może do dziś byłbym czystej krwi amigowcem i plułbym na Windows jak za starych (nie)dobrych czasów...
    • 27: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012

    "SID "najlepszym układem jest", a fortepian to najlepsze klawisze. "
    I have problems with that sentence.
    1. Why talk/write people of "one SID" . SID isn't just one chip. It's a series of chips, changed by the time.
    The 8580 has a clearly different sound than the 6581 (it's just a compatible chip), and the different revisions also differ in sounding.
    POKEY is the same revision from the late 70s to the early 90s.
    SID also has a too limited upper frequency range, to give it a "good" point there.
    The "fat" sounding is just the limitation of the frequency range.
    Well, it also feels silly for the creator of POKEY, to miss the "real" low sounds there, and never update the chip...
    • 28: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012
    But that's also a funny thing.
    C64 is named "C64", while it has changed in many ways inside with hidden chip updates.
    The main chips of A8 series never really changed inside, while Atari decided to change the case and declarations of the machines...
    • 29:
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012
    @Emkay Well, Solo Kazuki says, that SID is the best music chip. I say yes, I agree with it, but I prefer metallic and dynamic sounded POKEY. SID sounds usually muff and in compare to POKEY gives low dynamic.

    The same is to compare the piano, which has deeper sound and is more popular than harpsichord. But the second one can be more dynamic and some people just prefere that sound than piano. Harpsichord is also older than piano just like POKEY is older than SID.
    • 30:
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    Edit:(14:33) Wiki:
    Istnieją dwie główne wersje układu SID – 6581 ("stary") i 8580 ("nowy"). Pierwszy typ produkowany był do roku 1987, nowy – od 1987 do 1992. Między obiema wersjami są pewne istotne różnice wpływające na jakość generowanego dźwięku.

    Booker had written about that in this thread at 14.03.12 r.:
    @emkay: agree. :)
    Though in case of tune for 6581 you need model which has either the same or near filter curve you used for your tune.

    For 8580 the differences in filter curve are so small they're hardly hearable and you can be sure the tune will play properly on all of them.

    That means musicans could changed their way of composing from SID 6581 to SID 6582 (8580) and compositions made after the year 1987 could sound better than compositions before the year 1987. POKEY has the same sound all the time.

    Are the differences so important - I mean - are they gave musicans new posibilities in composing? Are the differences herable in compositions after the year 1987?
    • 31:
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    Emkay wrote:
    But that's also a funny thing.
    C64 is named "C64", while it has changed in many ways inside with hidden chip updates.
    The main chips of A8 series never really changed inside

    Emkay, what exact changes in C64 did you mean apart from slightly different sound of newer SID?
    • 32: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    I'm wondering as well - it just sounds slightly different due to different work of filters that's all. Technically it's still the same computer to the end - similar change you can notice in Atari when Freddie chip was introduced. 8580 has the same capabilities as 6582/6581
    • 33: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012
    The 8580 makes cleaner synth sounds possible. It works different with the filter and the volume changing.
    Sometimes, when "very impressive" sound demonstration of "the SID" occure, it's done on the 8580. A chip from 1986.... not 1981...

    VIC II "Real colour pictures" only have the colour depth on later revisions. The colours got more different brightness values, making "real colour calculations" possible.
    First VIC2 chips have 5 real different brightnesses, later VIC II chips had 9 different brightnesses in the colours...

    and so on...
    • 34:
    • CommentTime28 Sep 2012
    I think, that all games music had been made for SID 6581 for full compatibility with all C64 machines. Some demos could had been made with use SID 85080 advantages. So, it`s good to ask about SID version when wee see awesome c64 demo.
    • 35: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime29 Sep 2012
    This one almost let RMT explode.... ;)

    What interferes with the "tune development" is just that you have to create an additional instrument for every small variation, where just a slight filter offset programming is needed, or a volume difference between main and filter voice.
    • 36: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime29 Sep 2012
    Well, it's another "conversion" from a 4 channel MOD file. Some "SID" created source could fit better.
    • 37: CommentAuthorwieczor
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    This one almost let RMT explode.... ;)

    It almost let my ears explode too :>
    • 38: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    Well, the 1st part of the tune is possibly the best, that has been done with POKEY for now. If someone is denying that, he has no idea of music creation , or a different taste . The 2nd half of the tune is just not optimized by the fact that you'd have to create 1000s of different instruments, to adjust the variations. Where just some pitch-offset or volume difference has to be set.
    • 39: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    Even without all the optimisations, it spits already on the ST version ;)
    Well, in parts it's even outdoing SID...

    Here is an interesting video , comparing the ST and AMIGA version...

    • 40: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    POKEY can do.... there is ONLY A SUPPORTING Tracker needed
    • 41:
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    As for RMT it should be highlighted to understand:
    What interferes with the "tune development" is just that you have to create an additional instrument for every small variation, where just a slight filter offset programming is needed, or a volume difference between main and filter voice.
    • 42:
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    Panowie, kto weźmie to na swoje bary i razem z Emkayem zajmie się tym oprogramowaniem na 16-bitowy bas i inne tam rzeczy, ten zostanie wpisany do złotej księgi, a jego sława nie przeminie.
    • 43:
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    It's very funny to comparing music from different platform and sound generators. Whilst ST has hardware digital synthesizer chip, Amiga has 4 hardware digital 8-bit CA converters (it's possible to reach 14-bit depth and stereo mixing on standard Paula chip, but it cost some CPU power).
    So comparing two plaftorm is in the fact comparing two different method of sound creating. Basic synth vs rompler. Therefore Amiga music sounds more modern (like real music recording because of sampling) since ST sounds like retro synthesizers (with very simple and basic method of modulation, so closer to AY/ SID).

    I like both of them. ST sound because I'm chip fan (unlike 90% of Earth population) and Amiga because simply: Amiga rulez :).

    Pokey: it is different pair of shoes. I like music from many games and demos (Top Demo#2 final music is masterpiece). I wish that someone will code tracker for you. In those days maybe you can show us real power of this chip. Nowadays (sorry) but most of your tests sounds horrible to me because of tuning, false notes and overall cacophony.
    • 44: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    "Out of tune" .... we really shouldn't use that term anymore, because we know of the 8 bit resolution.

    It makes me wonder, why someone tells about "out of tune" and likes the top demo 2 tunes, which were all in all out of tune, except the digis.

    People expect different things, so they don't like it. But, to use "out of tune" in that case, doesn't help any stepping ahead.
    • 45: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    It's always ending up in statements just like your's.

    1. I didn't create POKEY
    2. I didn't create RMT

    I just want to have the best "sound/music" that can be done with the A8, so it may fit to the other capabilities of that machine.
    You know , sometimes a good tune appears on the A8, but you cannot listen to it due to the limited range.
    Sometimes the wrong basses kill the feeling of the tune
    pure digitracks don't help either, because they were not usable in games.
    the latest tunes, I've posted, could even get used in games like Rescue on Fractalus, where a horrible tune is actually played. Many of that old games use simple notations and don't take usage of the 16 bit.
    One digitrack with a low sampling rate would solve the missing basses and add the missing channel to make the tunes 100%.
    • 46:
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    At the first: I have human ear :) This is also musican's ear. Not programmer/coder ear (if you known what I mean).
    And for the second primo ;) - Top Demo #2

    last music starts ~3:45. Where is "out of tune" there?
    I don't recognize any "out of tune" notes. Whole sounds OK and has enormous power to me :) It is excellent composition and example how make music on small Atari (and chiptunes in general).

    Please tell us why we shouldn't use therm "out of tune"? I listened your experiments and I heard strange tuning. Some atari musicans knowns, that it be "forbidden" to using some notes. And they don't use them. Please don't tell us, that out of tune sounds okay, because of Atari and 8-bit :)

    I known, that maybe my opinion doesn't help so much, but this is a place for many opinions. Also like mine one.

    edit: synthesizer bass line is better than lo-fi digital sample. In your wideo (ST vs Amiga) chiptune has better dynamics than samplebased track. But in amigas music sampled kick makes better rhytm and overall feeling :)

    edit2: I known that Raster or Chuck Steinman <> Emkay and I know limitations of Pokey.
    • 47: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    The "out of tune" ... which means really pitch problems .... is in the high arpeggio and in the short portamento "attack" sound.
    This is caused by the multiplicator of POKEY's 8 bit resolution. The higher the sound, the more the voice gets off.
    You have to keep the programmed pitch low.
    You can reach this, using filter (doubling the low pitch physically and/or with the 1.79MHz generator).
    Not done in that tune, even using digi drums.
    • 48: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012 zmieniony
    "edit: synthesizer bass line is better than lo-fi digital sample. "

    You know about POKEY? So I don't understand this sentence, because "real basses" you only get digitized with POKEY.
    The distortions that were used for POKEY don't even know what a bass is ;)
    But they are good for some bass guitar imitating sounds and to fill up a missing channel, when needed.

    POKEY can play very good broad and crisp sounding instruments. That's why the sound resembles more the "modern" soundchips than "SID or YM/AY".
    But POKEY misses then clear basses, which destroys most of the demonstrations.
    • 49:
    • CommentTime30 Sep 2012
    This part of my post (edit) was concerned to your ST<->Amiga comparision video. So, at one side is ST/YM - synth line and at the other - Amiga digital sample. Sorry for little bit of chaos ;)
    • 50: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime1 Oct 2012 zmieniony
    It's a bit off topic, but also some similarity.
    The YM/SID chips had the high tone cutting. I wonder why people put some "better dynamics" in that . Basses were still washed...
    I'd also prefer the Amiga music over the ST music. Particular the Hülsbeck stuff.
    But, sometimes, the ST version of a gametune wins, just by the fact that something gets lost, using just samples for a tune. Particular "Chambers of Shaolin" ... the "music" is better on the ST. As we know, samples could have even solved that. But facts have to be facts.
    I'd also say, music on the Amiga suffered by the bad solution of the separated "left right stereo" . They should have built some fader , or else, for each channel in.