Ja jeszcze jako prosty kibic wszelkich projektów na Atari przypominam sobie jak kiedyś Kuba przy jakimś komentarzu czy temacie dotyczącym gier z C-64 napisał na moje pytanie o Giane Sisters, że wydaje mu się prosta do zrobienia. Tak też w temacie LN2 Gonza pisał o tym projekcie. Ja nie jestem nachalny ;) ale może kiedyś z braku laku powstanie moja ulubiona gra platformowa na 8bit;) Sory za offtop. Trzymam kciuki za LN2!
Ja się obawiam, że jak z reguły w takich wypadkach bardziej prawdopodobną opcją jest "albo i nie" :) To jest hobby nie zawód i różne rzeczy mogą się zdarzyć - oczywiście chciałbym aby to się nie zdarzyło ;)
@Alex: Jose napisał: "but probably one day someone will take the original and real LN, convert that Integrator into A8." Obaj dobrze wiemy, że to nie jest probably a raczej unlikely. Bo someone oznacza no one - albo zrobi to konkretna osoba a na gdybaniach wiele konwersji nie doszło do końca. Powstanie jeden port i na tym się skończy - a jaki on będzie... To się zobaczy. Nie chodzi mi oczywiście o zajmowanie się wszystkim naraz, są priorytety, ale moim skromnym zdaniem nie warto zatrzymywać się wpół drogi - zresztą, jeśli priorytety będą zachowane, to będziesz miał swój port z BBC jako jeden z etapów pośrednich :)
Kuba trzymaj się swojego planu, w końcu będzie można popykać w LN na A8. I tak, znając życie będzie 100 000 konwersji bo ktoś tam pozmienia w DLI kolory i doda kilka pixeli poza ekranem gry :) Niechaj ta wersja będzie tą zakończoną. A co do ładniejszej wersji -> robi ją przecież Gonzo.
Tak z drugiej strony patrząc: Gonzo, dostaniesz źródła LN2. Cokolwiek opisane i rozszyfrowane. Będziesz mógł się skupić na grafice, a logikę masz zapewnioną. Czy będziesz ją robił "w silniku plansz" i miał małe levele, czy też duże levele, ale szybko zrobisz plansze poprzez zrzuty ekranowe.
Alex: I am saying he finish the BBC/Electron exactly like he's doing now in those 4colours and the same gfxs.
If Jakub then want my help I can send him the gfxs and PMGs data and screen colours (only some of them need to be changed. But that change only on some of them to [00], where we will add the PMGs underlays).
My part it's simple and fast less one day.
For Jakub it seems also because he don't change code. He just add PMGs gfxs/objects data for all the game and then load the needed ones on each screen and 'xPos and colour' them.
If it is to use the BBC/Electron version then it seems the only way.
Any other changes would end up in, probably, beeing a new code and then better start from zero (and it seems that this isn't the idea behind the use of this simplier bitmap mode same 6502 4colours bit-pairs).
You are right, Jose, (about the improvement in gfx using pmg and 00 holes), but also, I'm looking deep into the level format, to reversee-engineer this, which could result in more sophisticated looking, more objects and general more mess on the screen. But just looking for now, and later I'll decide what to do. It shouldn't be too hard.
Just for the fun of seeing possible looking, but I couldn't go further than level1 with emulator and keyboard playing commands, can any of you play the BBC/Electron version and post here other levels screens (can't find on web more than just the first ones at Central Park)?
Thanks.
The LN2 BBC Micro version is alittle cut-out - every level has no more than 16 rooms. It is somehow either easier or harder, there is no boat for example, but it is some platforms formed in a path on the lake you must jump through.
The other minor thing is that the red color changes sometimes to pink (in second level)
I think it is good thing to extend level count to 32 and add missing rooms... in the future.
I am really start to like some the BBC looking of some gfxs. If the straight port and just some pixels re-arranjment on some gfxs (probably put more same one over others, like more trees, ambush,...). I am still trying to get more screens of Level1 and yes, 4Players for the Playing area seems more than enough and this leaves free 4Missiles/5th Player in PF3 colour just for use on the right side of screen Panel.
What we can't have is another Green on the trees and Ambushes because there's always the Grass as BACKGROUND Register colourbut that's no problem... for PAL guys there's always some nice blending another greens. And the idea of having all the screen Border and just changing screen to screen (Grass, Walkway,...) seems also good looking, I think.
From the last screens I add Players on the chairs but I also did better on the those enemys same type as LN1 on the back of the shirt because they use the same colour as the Walkway (PF3) so, now they seem more like the Hi-resolution C64 ones. Here you have 8screens of Level one:
@emkay: Yes, but we've seen enough of static screen. Using that technique in dynamic playfield is much harder to do - and not because of CPU cycles, but just beacause of lack of flexibility.
PS. Bring back basses to music, at leas on the normal POKEY level ;)
But I'm sure Atari will run LN in hi-res - problem could be with storing colouring information in suitable form to apply to any room. That's just discussed for 160x192 mode.
In colour mode, Antic takes 40 cycles. In Hires you have more details and Antic only takes 32 bytes. And what's even more important: The moving objects are smaller. So you need to handle 1 byte where you have to handle 2 bytes in colour mode.
and, btw. The A8 has the better interrupts, that makes such games always run smoother with the "1.79MHz" 6502 than with the 3.5MHz Zilog.
I have seen several spectrum games that were perfectly smooth. I do not remember this now, but there was a trick with last/first byte of memory which let overcome the Speccy's known interrupt bug. I have read this in "Bajtek" somewhere AFAIR.
@Emkay: The speccy 32Bytes x 192scanlines cycles it's almost exactly the same as this 40Bytes x 160scanlines: -> GR.8: (32 + 9_refresh) x 192scanlines = 7872cycles -> GR15: (40 + 9_refresh) x 160scanlines = 7840cycles
The guys size aren't much different so that you can say you'd win much more cycles.
A8 in hi-res would also be a pain because you'll soon ran out of PMGs if you really want to get something good looking and colourfull. And more, if there PMGs on gfxs then the guys if going over will take the gfxs colour. Also expandable PMGs may work on pure isometric gfxs like walls but never on irregular ones like trees,...
And here, as Jakub is showing it's possible to have a much easier translation because your base it's a universal 4colours and soft sprites only 6502 code. Now imagine adapt the Z80 code? (even if sometimes we have XXL doing it...)
@Jakub: About the nº of screens per level: There isn't also much more than 16screens per level and some has even less: ->link<- But yes, the BBC/Electron version misses, on level one, at least these: -> There's not the Hat Man throwing knifes -> The Nunchakus pick-up in Toilets is different -> There's no Boat and instead we have to jump on the Rocks over the River Any more differences you see (not gfxs)?
Last night I finish the underlay stuff for the screens I have for level one. "Jakub: Is it possible to pass on the River? I can't get the Ninja jumping.
I really like the looking and there's not many PMGs needed in most of the screens. On the outside, for example, the PMGs underlays are in chairs, boxes, stone bricks walls and the objects/weapons to pick-up. All the screens of level one here with only the ones after the River missing (instead of them you'll see those small screens of the C64 version):
But I also started thinking in a way to have a better looking bottom Status Panel and get something I really like... Instead of 'YOU' and 'THEM' then why not put the Ninja and the guy type face (Police,...) with a smaller version of the C64 energy bars? What do you think? And I also take off the Twin Towers and put there a similar to future Ground Zero Tower(s), (although diferent looking it's still the same because when we our Ninmja or the enemy loose energy because you just replace the bars with the PF0 Black colour):
P.s.- Out of Topic:
Just seeing the News and they are saying that all your Miners were saved and in good Health.
It's always nice to ear good news when there's so much bad happening all around the World.
nie mogę się doczekać na wersję finalną, więc póki co pozwoliłem sobie trochę podkolorować wersję LastNinja22 :) jeśli kolory komuś nie pasują to można je łatwo zmienić samemu, albo jeśli ktoś nie potrafi to trzeba wrzucić obrazek g2f w tym wątku i ja je pozmieniam.
jhusak - ciekawy pomysł z tym połączeniem grafiki c64 i logiki bbc, raczej sam sobie z tym nie poradzę, ale od czego jest forum ? :) nie jestem koderem i wielu rzeczy nie ogarniam, ale podrzuć źródła, może uda mi się jakoś z nich skorzystać. np. czy każdy obrazek w tej gierce ma dodatkową mapę wg której porusza się ninja?
Mi też jak na razie podobają się najbardziej ze wszystkich już tutaj zaproponowanych zestawów. Gonzowe grzebanie w grafikach rypanych z C=64 zaczyna mu się odpłacać. :D
Yes. Just was expecting that! So we will end up in a game in that seems mono with black and floor with two shades of the same colour for the walls (a 5th for the letters on the Panels seems but that's also possible in mine). Black on Borders: O.K. but mine because I wanted that Jakub do exactly the BBC port so Black it's [01]. Change it to [00] and then there's no possible to have no more colouring because the PMGs underlays are then impossible. And also, for me, the luminances are a little bit darker (the Bricks have more sense beeing Dark Red than Dark Black). And on the outside: at least two Greens needed and other things like boxes, Gray brick walls, objects/weapons to pick-up, River,... There's also a last possibility and that one look better because of Black Border so let it be but no changes on the bit-pairs. For me it remembers those bad 80s/90s times of the mono 3 or 4 luminances of the same colour. Why not use PMGs if we have them possible and free to use in expandable width. If we go this way then it would be the BBC/Electron same 4/5colours just with the better A8 Palette. Don't want to say mine is the only and the best nor put the others down but I always battle to get LN serious and think of it in a mono looking when we have Palette and Resources for much more. Greetings and Good Night.
@Gonzo, pomysł jest ciekawy, wymaga: - rozkminienia i rozszerzenia formatu leveli, nie jest to trudne, ale i nie łatwe. - porzucenia myśli "wszystkie levele w pamięci", bo się to nie zmieści...
Level ma zestaw klocków 4x1 (16x8 punktów) i sprytne nimi malowanie and-orem.
I never expected that Atari will be at least playable beta version of the game last ninja :) great work, thanks and I look forward to the next version :)
O.k. I see the screens and Map again. It's really possible and better looking of having the side Panel with always the letters majour colour the same for all the game. And of course it's better to have the Borders Black (although Black (00) in Playing Area I decided to have (02) on Borders so that it differs from the majour screen if there are (00) gfxs next to the Borders.
Only thing I think would be better looking is if Jakub real center the screen: BBC/Electron 160scanlines so better if you 40 Blank on Top and the same on Bottom.
And there's also my proposal for the better looking guys energy bar. Here there's no Police but the photo would show the the correspondant guy that is at that screen (There's no need for more data for the guys photo because the ones at those two cells are exactly copy of the soft sprites shapes frames)
@Jakub: Of course there's no colour re-maping but you don't have to waste 2Players that you need so much for the Playing area colouring. Remember you are in Bitmap Gr.15 and no 5th colour available for screen PFs? Yes, it's it's right. You just put two Missiles at each side as 5th Player/PF3 colour set to (02). Each of them cover 4Bytes each side (so all the side Borders covered). Inside Playing Area from my tries 3Players are enough so you have always same colour P3 free to have the letters always same majour colour (0E) and the same one re-use to have the Objects shown majour colour any you want. On the Bottom Panel there's always the 4Players same colour and the Bars (Left_P0)+(Right_P1) in Players Multicolour get the 'VS' nice Yellow (0E).
This picture shows better than million words: (see now that the PMGs underlays on the gfxs are really possible and not all that much. Each object can have it pre-defined data for all the level and just call for each screen the ones you need)
EDIT: The bottom Panel BACKGROUND Register colour it's not(6,10) but I think (7,10). Don't have here G2F now)
In case you want to see if it's dark or not (or also try different colours in G2F,...) here is all the files: (For PAL guys you also get some blending more colours although more noticable on the outside screens in the Trees, River,...)
@Jakub: I thought you were using GR.15 and a 1x1 copy of BBC. In ANTIC4 charmode you'll have to deal with some 'small problems': -> many charsets across the screen -> then the soft sprites cross different charsets in the moving -> but also of the 1st scanline of a charline and the soft sprites at least 8scanlines/1charline per byte needed for the shifting.
Jose: according to your upper post; there are no problems with charsets just because they are not used to limit somehow amount of data pushed to the screen. Charsets are fixed to certain screen areas and graphics is handled as in normal graphics mode - just instead of drawing in screen memory, you're drawing in charsets' memory - then it works as normal graphics mode, 5th colour as a bonus.
@Wieczor: Mine not using PF3 but if like you and Jakub you aren't no more in GR.15. To use the PF3 colour wherever you need then the screen turns into ANTIC4 charmode. You have to use something like 2charlines=1charset 'Mimic Bitmap Mode' (80chars and free the remaining ones for the soft sprites). Don't get your point of view because it seems the only way (then having more cycles and sprites more data for the vertical shifting and crossing multiple charsets wasting more cycles).
(80chars and free the remaining ones for the soft sprites). Don't get your point of view...
Not true. Its 2 x 64 "chars" wide, but you see only 40. invisible areas are for whatever you want. There is no complicated software sprites with char remapping and storing. This is very simple itself :)
Jose, I think you have not noticed in my post, that:
Atari Graphics mode over Character mode (as wieczor wrote) is a GRAPHICS MODE. No problem with software sprites and char alocation at all - as it does not exist!
All you have is the graphics screen with data layout exactly like BBC micro or C64 (eight bytes down, byte right etc) and you get one bit attributes in bonus.
All you have to do is a short DLI which changes charset every two "char" lines. Even (for now, later will be changed) screen character memory has 64+40 bytes (due to multiple LMS-es).
