Przeniesienie tematu z komentarzy ze strony wydarzeń - 'Pixel Heaven 2015 Zapraszamy':
Smaku @2015-09-26 13:13:30
Co do trybów, to nie wiem o czym mowa jeszcze... mogę tylko myśleć o tym, że pewnie jak od początku Atari 65XE robili programiści, czyli dzielenie ekranu na różne tryby mieszane, albo wykorzystanie pamięci ekranu i układów graficznych jako narzędzi czystych gotowych, a nie sterowanych ustawieniami peek i poke i inne te miejsca pamięci, co trzeba, żeby ustawiać tryby gotowe przeznaczone. Czyli mamy pamięć, mamy układy. Wszystko gotowe. Można klikać i korzystać z tego, co dane w sprzęcie => i zrobić sobie dowolny tryb graficzny z pełnej palety możliwości jakie daje sprzęt. Można to policzyć i pokazać w liczbach po układach Atari co jest możliwe fizycznie. Więcej niż to, co możliwe, możliwe nie jest bez wspomagania z zewnątrz. A wspomagając z zewnątrz, można podłączyć jakąś SVGA albo inna współczesną Silicon Graphics nawet, więc sumując: dowolne tryby jakie kto lubi, nawet kinowe w przełożeniu 1:1 czyli 30 na 15 metrów, czy ile tam jest w kinie czy na telebimach w kolorach 64-bit. Zależy wszystko, z czego korzystano. Przejrzę potem, o czym było... z ciekawości co prezentowano...
@kosa0: Z czasem samo się wyjaśni wszystko w szczegółach - będzie można wrócić do początku i ten wstępny komentarz będzie zrozumiały, nawet uwzględniając luźny styl skomentowania, nie do końca komputerowo precyzyjny w opisie pełnym i jednoznacznym tematu. Mimo to będzie wiadomo, o czym mowa. W skrócie: o całości grafiki możliwej na Atari i nie tylko na Atari - w dowolnych systemach graficznych zarówno w kwestii urządzeń technicznych jak i sposobu wykorzystania danych urządzeń w sposób programowy dostępny dla użytkownika systemu graficznego soft i hardware jako komplet a nawet więcej, czyli jak wykorzystać hardware graficzny dany konkretny i hardware dodatkowy graficzny dowolny, żeby na danym sprzęcie elektronicznym lub komputerowym w szczególności uzyskać efekt dowolny graficzny oczekiwany.
Akurat po Pixel Heaven była rozmowa zaczęta i jest kontynuowana aktualnie w kwestii trybów 'mieszanych' lub realizowanych 'ręcznie' z użyciem dostępnego hardware'u graficznego Atari 65XE i sposobów programowych do tworzenia trybu wielokolorowego znakowego do wykorzystania nawet w grach i to dobrze i precyzyjnie opracowanych grach pod względem graficznym ze względu na techniki dostępne w trybach znakowych, które akurat wymagają precyzyjności co do piksela dla każdego obiektu. A do tego inne zastosowania tego trybu.
Autor lub twórca technik i sposobów realizowania tego trybu graficznego nazwał go Super IRG i osiągnięcia w tej pracy są wystarczająco ciekawe i efektowne, a może i efektywne w grach i w innych zastosowaniach - tego nie wiem jeszcze - żeby móc się zainteresować, żeby poznać więcej, jak akurat u mnie zadziałało. Zaciekawiłem się.
Jeśli uda się tu przenieść komentarze spod Pixel Heaven w temacie trybu Super IRG to będzie wiadomo więcej.
A jak będzie wiadomo wszystko wystarczająco, to może o innych i pozostałych trybach możliwych na Atari się opowie i będzie wszystko ciekawe i gotowe po całości.
Temat nie jest duży nawet potencjalnie - stąd napisałem, że można to pokazać fizycznie przeliczając permutując nawet elementy specyfikacji graficznej Atari 8-bit, żeby mieć w jednej tabelce 100% możliwych efektów graficznych Atari do uzyskania no i pozostaje się bawić i robić sobie, ale z zestawu pełnego gotowego jak widać w tabelce.
Bo tam na prelekcjach na Pixel Heaven podobno mówiono, że powstały nowe tryby graficzne. Właśnie mnie to zaciekawiło. Można by przepermutować wszystkie istotne specyfikacje sprzętu graficznego Atari i mieć już wszystkie tryby możliwe raz i koniec. Nigdy by nie odkryto nic więcej... :)
Ale mając taką pełna tabelkę można sobie mieć z czego wybierać i próbować robić swoje efekty graficzne już konkretne wtedy.
Jak w przykładowym trybie Super IRG - osoba, z którą rozmawiałem na ten temat w komentarzach do Pixel Heaven - robi świetne rzeczy, warte przejrzenia i chociaż zobaczenia jak się to robi i co z tym można zrobić. To ciekawe właśnie.
Jak uda się poniżej przenieść rozmowę spod Pixel Heaven, to będzie można kontynuować merytorycznie i budująco na ile jest to możliwe i dokąd się da, żeby wyczerpać temat ogólnych technik i jak się to robi, etc. - no i zobaczymy. Tam było pełno różnych 'nowych trybów' odkrytych podobno. Na pewno będę szukał potem o czym mówiono. A o Super IRG akurat już wiadomo.
Synthpopalooza @2015-09-27 05:28:38 There was also a game I tweaked, originally by Itay Chamiel. It was a Tetris clone called "The Wall". His original implementation was a triple interlace (ColorView RGB mode) but I changed it to run on the ICE CIN low-res mode. What you do is alternate the GTIA between normal and mode 11, over an Antic 4 screen. This gets you 60 colors at 160x192 resolution, using 5 greyscale over 14 chromas.
Synthpopalooza @2015-09-28 03:27:57 Smaku: The Super IRG mode is 160 x 192, and has 14 colors (two less than the 16 you need). You set up an Antic 4 screen, and allow memory for 2 fonts (2K) ... you switch CHBAS between those two fonts every VBLANK. When designing characters, you can have any of 10 colors per character cell ... the extra 4 colors are for when you use inverse characters (PF3). The characters are designed using a checkerboard pattern so that you don't get full-frame flicker.
Bill Kendrick's Gem Drop game uses this, as does another game called "RPG". I also did a test Rainbow Islands screen in this mode too: ->link<-
Basically, Super IRG was first used (to my knowledge) by Bill Kendrick in a puzzle game from 1998 called "Gem Drop". It basically uses a single Antic 4/Antic 5 (Graphics 12 or 13) screen, with the character set shadow register CHBAS changed every VBI cycle. The fast cycle causes the colors to blend, allowing 10 colors per character and 14 colors onscreen. Because no color changes happen, you can do a checkerboard pattern on the characters to blend the colors, and it looks better than full screen flickering.
The mode will look better on NTSC machines than PAL, because NTSC is at 60hz, faster than PAL. But if viewed on a modern LCD TV, or a monitor with a scan doubler, there is no flicker at all.
From this, I wrote a series of font editors called ICE, in Turbo BASIC ... there are three now, and I am working on three more. All told, there are more than 20 modes possible, they use different Antic modes, color swapping, and in some cases the GPRIOR (GTIA mode) is changed as well. The ICE font editors got 4th place in 2011 ABBUC contest.
I wrote also a series of articles in AtariUser magazine about some of these Super IRG modes. Some of these have been translated into Polish and are on this site.
Looking at the Gem Drop it reminds Mr Robot. Wasn't Mr Robot created in this kind of 'Super IRG' character-multicolor mode? It seems to be exactly as Gem Drop, at least to me.
How many character tables can be predefined to use in this mode, or how many of characters at least in one standard char-table can be predefined to use in this mode?
How to find elements of this mode in Pharaoh's Curse or in Robbo? Would it be worse looking or better after created these two exampled games in full such mode like Super IRG?
The rest of my comments from the thread (from Pixel Heaven 2015 Welcome - atarionline event page):
Smaku @2015-09-26 21:04:57
@Gonzo: is that about this Atari graph modes? It was yesterday as I can read in attached program of the party (on 25-th of september)?
Does anyone have some reviews or summaries of the days of pxelheavenfest (25 and 26-th)? I would love to know what was told about Atari graph modes. To know just. Curiosity.
16 colors at one time on the screen or palette range only?
Isn't it possible to put 64-bit through analog TV output from Atari graph chipsets in the highiest resolution possible - using wider size of memory blocks for graph - just?
DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-27 09:47:24
@Synthpopalooza: Thank You very much for the information You gave. I'll for sure check it all to see and know exactly how it works. I checked Fire Chief a moment ago, cos I rememebered the rainbows in multicolors and it is still raibow, as I remembered... How to use so many colors in games - generally I ask not expecting the answer... but how to get all these colors in game-resolutions, just to play and have fun with all these colors...? Is it possible? I think, that it is... hmm... I'll check it. I need 160x192 with at least 16 colors independednt (not in gradation - at one time on the screen - to use in games).
'At least' because I need 256 in gradation by x16 each from 256 at least...
DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-27 09:53:08
... in the end I need res 320x200 with 256 independent colors at once on the screen. Any possible way exists, I need to have that and I will... cos I need.
DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-28 13:00:50
@Synthpopalooza: This Raibow Islands reminds me Mouse Trap - the same or similar set of colors and methods even maybe...
'rainbow islands super irg color palette.png' looks like VGA in 16 colors on PC - Indiana Jones and the first adventure games were made in such colors palette in res 320x200 - well set palette to use the full set of needed 14 colors in games could be enough to have profesionally made games. I remember some shootin' game on PC - the same palette in VGA 16. Quality of 256 colors are even not seen by the player - 16 color mode is just a little darker and nothing else - the same quality of game. I'll remind myself the title to show how it is and works. And it looked like on this screen is shown - dark colors in palette (16 color VGA mode).
I thought about to make a little electronic change in GTIA or other chipset in Atari to have res 320x200 with 256 colors. It would be like PC 386DX 33MHz VGA 256 colors. A little add to memory (some blocks needed only to have perfect machine with specification set to achieve) and eventually independent processor for graph chipsets and memory general one managin' all graph functionsto to have free main 6502 proc.
Hmm... and it is to be done easily I think.
Then Atari 65XE 8-bit becomes PC 386DX 33MHz VGA 256 colors.
It should be easy to do just... after weekend I'll try.
Havin' VGA 256 with proper block of memory for graph I need nothing more actually... then I'll know what I need more.
This method Super IRG mode 160x192 with 14 colors is nice. I like it. It reminds me now some adventure game: The Pawns? I have to check later...
If more is not possible to get from Atari graph chipsets I have to improve it in the way described above. Cos I like it, so I have to get it - to have fun in full pleasure of mine playin' Atari 8-bit. :)
If is done - I'll show and tell... wait.
Thanks for information and links given. It's useful.
DS`. SEP.28.2015.
Smaku @2015-09-28 14:34:26
About this game I mentioned in VGA 16 and VGA 256 modes - here I found comparison between many versions from ZX Spectrum to MS DOS through Amiga, Commodore 64 and other machines.
Darker version is probably in VGA 256 mode, more colorful in EGA or VGA 16 color mode (less range of gradients, so more 'colorful').
Mouse Trap is not in this Super IRG mode, but I associated somehow this screen from Rainbow Islands with Mouse Trap - checkin' it is probably not the same method, as can be seen...
Similar somethin' only in my memory - and also is visible. :)
The Pawn has only few colors, but I associated with something similar to this game. Some adventure game had very colorful graphics in high resolution with interlacin' - as I can remind... some day I'll find in free time, to check just, no to stray between memories own not set reminded clearly in proper blocks and associated as should be in fine.
I'll try to use these 14 colors in Super IRG mode somehow to get nice views. Maybe it is valuable enough to get fun...
Thanks. DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-28 15:11:36
W nawiązaniu do Super IRG mode 160x192 res.
Zrobiłem sobie przykładowy obrazek na Atari 65XE - jako wzór, żeby zrobić na sprzęcie Atari. Najpewniej można osiągnąć ładne efekty w grach i demach, we wszystkim. Starcza 8 kolorów dobrze wykorzystanych. Jak widać na przykładach. Chyba się ne pomyliłem z symulacja wstępną? Potem sprawdzę. Ale wykonanie na Atari nie powinno odbiegać od przykładów.
Pierwszy w 8 kolorach 192x128:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-arAhdBoFfHE/Vgk6vOqzagI/AAAAAAAABAA/lYWYgUzYYtE/w192-h128-no/Super%2BIRG%2B192-128%2B-%2B8%2Bcolors%2BAtari%2B.gif) [link to correct]
Drugi w 16 kolorach (rozdzielczość ta sama: 192x128):
Jeśli tak będzie wyglądało na Atari, a powinno 100%, to jest w co grac i co robić. Lubię to. :)
Smaku @2015-09-28 16:23:36
Dokańczając temat wstępu sposobu wykorzystania trybów high-res na Atari 8-bit, da się zrobić ładne przygodówki w stylu Larry i King's Quest, jak widać poniżej:
192x120 8-colors: (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P5qgT...) [link to correct]
192x120 16-colors:
Skoro da się zrobić takie gry jak powyżej przykłady, to da się zrobić każde możliwe proste platformówki typu Mario Bross, itp. jak Raibow Island.
Fajne. Lubię to.
@Synthpopalooza: If needed or useful could be what said in previous comments to Super IRG - like modes, I can rewrite the comments in English?
Sincerely, useful for me are the information got as till now.
For sure I'll try tu use it or to check at least how it works all on machines.
Thank You,
DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-28 21:21:06
@Synthpopalooza: Thanks. I'll check it more in detalis as till now to know just and see, as mentioned earlier.
Meantime I checked the screen You posted in the first link of Rainbow Island - it is in 300x200 (more or less), so when I transformed this image to 192x160 it is not possible to play. (520 vertic. x ..) is minimum I think to have playable game. In 192x160 it is not possible, but maybe I did something wrong checkin' this screen.
If screens from King's Quest and this castle will look like I prepared in 8 or 16 colors 192x130 (can be less than 14 colors to use even - to get such beautiful views as in the examples - as can be seen) - then it is possible to make nice games in these high-res with multicolor.
I'll check the things You tell about - editors and other - to see.
Thanks. Useful it is.
Is it possible to get such view on Atari any-mode? Only 8 colors and 192x120 res. :)
Below:
I can put that in PNG or BMP - pure pixels as cen be seen 192x120 with 8 colors. Should be no problem I think. But I do ont know.
And this:
also 8 colors only in res 192x130 or 120.
I'll try Your editors to get this in Atari formats.
thx.
Smaku @2015-09-28 22:13:52
@Synthpopalooza: I tried to open this 'rainbow islands demo screen - super irg.atr' in emulator, but only Turbo Basic XL 1.5 welcomes (F. Ostrowski) for a second and I am back in Basic (probably Turbo Basic XL 1.5 not standard rom basic), but what then? Cload or load or anything? To see the screen?
I took a look more closely to Your articles about Super IRG. It's about fonts... I thought it is in graph mode, not character-mode colored used as graph-mode.
I was doin' such things in 8 graph mode in early 90's - I designed Ninja in 2 colors and it was smooth and perfect like high-high res ninja, not the same as in Master Ninja - my Ninja was perfect in two colors... hmm... is it character mode with colors? To be sure what we are talkin' about exactly.
I had to remind more and slowly after years to come back to full knowledge to be precisely in topics, that's why.
(?)
Smaku @2015-09-29 12:08:31
@Synthpopalooza: Great, thank You very much. 'rainbis.tur' is workin' correctly. Nice, but shiverin'. Is it called 'flickering'? Should I change some system parameters to see stable picture, or it must be this way?
Thanks for precising with information given straightly. Exactly it was about, what I was asking to be sure. If it is character mode, now I can do anything and whatever knowing. It is important. And I know what we are talking about and all the rest. It was the most important for me. I did not read in details the previous info from You about Super IRG mode - that's why this all... including my questions about pure pixel bitmaps to put on Atari screen. Now all is clear. Thanks.
This Ninja which I desined in 90-s was made just in character mode changin' the characters table - outline shape in separate chars and 'inside' Ninja was just full character filled with all bits set in character. Just. :) But it was precisely made, so it was perfectly designed Ninja. Only two colors, but I learned how to work with changin character tables to use in bigger shapes to use in games. And it worked perfectly.
The same as You do in Your Super IRG mode, but in Your work the most important is to get so much colors in whole picture on the screen and in each character - so it is highier level 'a little'. :)
With pleasure I'll check it all just to see how it works according to Your info and links. Thanks You. It is new thing for me. In 90-s I did not think about character mode with colors.
Actually I got afterthought - after these info about character modes with colors and after watched the film 'From bedrooms to billions' nad according to Jet Set Willy and etc. - that this character mode can be some kind of ZX Spectrum work kind of - exactly as ZX Spectrum programmers and users were doing in Their epoque... and it is adopted to Atari to continue work with ZX Spectrum. It's about pixels and colors and graph methods typical for ZX - not for Atari. I think this way. Maybe I am wrong. (?)
Smaku @2015-09-29 12:13:19
This 'tears-pc0.obx' and Gauntlet and Ms Pacman and the rest of the screens are for real in this Super IRG mode? On Atari? Great it is and looks... professional works.
For sending King's Quest pics You can write to: social_profiles@smakubooks.eu.
Thank You very much. I will take a look with pleasure to think about doin' somethin' by myself then.
DS`.
Smaku @2015-09-30 14:53:23
@Synthpopalooza: Thank You, I received You e-mail and answered, but intentionally and automatically I sent the response using comapny e-mail, I am sorry about that. I would prefer to use this social_profiles used for e-mail for our further discussion. Thank You.
DS`. SEP.30.2015.
Smaku @2015-09-30 15:00:30
@Synthpopalooza: important correction to the previous comment of mine: 'NOT intentionally' - it is important, no matter what other can think. It is. True is not False, but opposite. :)
Set pixel is not not set pixel.
Thanks. DS`.
Smaku @2015-10-02 23:12:56
@Synthpopalooza: both two new e-mails of Yours I received, thank You, but can read and check in sunday evenig or on monday. I'll replay for sure. Thanks and I am sorry for inconv.
About our conversation on Super IRG topic here from the time of Pixel Heaven in Warsaw, I'd like to ask if it was possible to move the whole topic - comment by comment (all comments related to graph-topic) from this page to the separated dedicated topic on Forum atarionline? I started with my comment from here on 26-th of sep. which I moved to the forum starting new thread:
It would be needed only to register on Forum (right top corner of the atarionline page) and then in the thread as linked above only to put another comment from the conversation (Your comment) and then I could put another mine from this page and to the end the same - to keep the dates of comments and the flow of the discussion.
