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1. • 1: CommentAuthorxxl
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 15:05

    
   Nikogo nie dziwi ze dzisiejsze playery z edytorow muzycznch zabieraja nawet "40 linii ekranu" ale jak to bylo w zlotej erze?
   Sprawdzalem playery muzyczne lat 80 - raczej (a nawet wcale) nie wychodzily powzej 8 linii - do 5 !!! razy szybciej niz dziejsze playery?
   
   wybralem utwory hity wszechczasow na atari np. Panther, Storm, Amaurote, Draconus, Zybex, Ninja Commando, Blinky's Scary School, Extirpator, International Karate, Jet Set Willy, Warhawk, Ninja, Milk Race
   
   i... wlasciwie mozna powiedziec ze player jest ten sam (roznice - jesli sa, dotycza ilosci instrumentow, tabel czestotliwosci dzwiekow, efektow), sadze ze roznice moga wynikac jedynie z kompilacji warunkowych.
   
   i teraz pytanie - jakiego edytora uzywali?
   
   mysle ze byl dostepny (rozne firmy, rozni autorzy, nawet autorzy ktorzy na atari napisali tylko jeden utwor)
   
   ma ktos jakiekolwiek wiadomosci co to mogl byc za edytor?
2. • 2:
      
     CommentAuthorDracon
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 15:05

    
   Jakiś "kuzyn" Future Composera. ;)
   Swoją drogą całkiem krótki i wydajny miał player muzyczek.
3. • 3: CommentAuthorxxl
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 16:05

    
   FC to lata 90, musialo byc cos wczesniej.
4. • 4:
      
     CommentAuthormiker
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 17:05 zmieniony

    
   ->link<-
   Dobrze pamiętałem, że był przeprowadzony wywiad z A.G.
   Nawet Dracon przepytywał. Może coś tu jest więcej na ten temat.
5. • 5: CommentAuthorxxl
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 17:05

    
   tylko tyle ze byla jakas "procedura odgrywajaca" i ze przepisywal dane recznie w hex...
   
   moze gdzies zachowala sie ta procedura w calosci.
   
   sporo osob musialo miec do niej dostep. wczesniejsi muzycy niz Gilmore tez z niej korzystali.
6. • 6:
      
     CommentAuthorvoy
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 17:05 zmieniony

    
   Rob Hubbard, z tego, co pamiętam, nie używał żadnego edytora, tylko przenosił kod playera z C64 i dostosowywał do małego Atari. Na C64 muzykę pisał przy użyciu BASIC-a i asemblera. Podobnie David Whittaker.
   
   Przy okazji wyszło, że w ASMA są błędy i kilka jego muzyczek zostało przypisanych innym autorom. :)
   
   Poniżej kilka ciekawych linków:
   ->link<-
   ->link<-
   ->link<-
7. • 7: CommentAuthorxxl
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 17:05

    
   W Hubbarda juz predzej bym uwierzyl - player pojawil sie w 1986 - nie znalazlem wczesniejszej gry ktora by uzwala tej procedury.
8. • 8:
      
     CommentAuthorvoy
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 18:05 zmieniony

    
   Czyli pewnie on jest pierwotnym autorem, a reszta dostosowywała ją pod siebie, poczynając od Davida Whittakera, który pożyczył ją od Hubbarda w zamian za playera na AY na ZX-a.
9. • 9:
      
     CommentAuthorpirx
   • CommentTime3 May 2020 18:05

    
   Z tego to pamiętam z rozmowy na giełdzie z Magnusem w future composerze jest player (zmodyfikowany) whittakera. zresztą najpierw w FC były właśnie klasyczne muzyczki w rodzaju warhawk.
   goscie z HTT też zrobili edytor na podstawie tego playera, nazywał się ZUPKGC (ponoć taki ciąg znaków jest gdzieś w playerze), niestety nie puścili ;(
10. • 10: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime3 May 2020 18:05

     
    no to wyglada na to ze sie wyjasnilo :-) Rob Hubbard jest autorem playera.
11. • 11: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime3 May 2020 18:05

     
    To ZUPKGC to jest w playerach fragment tablicy częstotliwości.
12. • 12: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 12:05

     
    a sa jakies gry (pewnie polskie) z muzyka pisana w Future Composerze?
13. • 13:
       
      CommentAuthorpirx
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 12:05

     
    operation blood :)
14. • 14: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 13:05 zmieniony

     
    Włóczykij, Hawkmoon.
    
    Edit: Na dyskietce z fcplayerem widzę:
    
    BLOOD1.FC
    BLOOD2.FC
    FILMEDIT.FC
    FLINSTON.FC
    GALAHAD1.FC
    GALAHAD2.FC
    HAWKMOON.FC
    HUMAN1.FC
    HUMAN2.FC
    INDIANA1.FC
    INDIANA2.FC
    RENEGADE.FC
    RIOT.FC
    SATURN1.FC
    SOS1.FC
    SOS2.FC
    TACTIC1.FC
    TACTIC2.FC
    TACTIC3.FC
    TACTIC4.FC
    TACTIC5.FC
    TERMIN1.FC
    TERMIN2.FC
    TERMIN3.FC
    TERMIN4.FC
    WLOCZYKI.FC
15. • 15: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 13:05

     
    dzieki :-)
    
    a czy rozwinal sie ten player w kierunku dodania jednego kanalu z samplowanmi instrumentami?
    
    z 4 kanalow pokeya 1 i 2 jest polaczony w 16bit a to oznacza ze jeden AUDC z kontrola glosnosci jest wolny i nieuzywany - mozna dodac kanal samplowanych instrumentow.
16. • 16: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 14:05

     
    Można, ale nie rozwinął się, bo to jest Future Composer Player :)
17. • 17: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 15:05

     
    w sumie racja, nie da sie pogodzic szybkosci playera i saplowanych instrumentow.
    
    ale... skoro Hubbard playera napisal na atari... dane muzyki mial z c64 a na c64 FC pojawil sie dopiero dwa lata pozniej to czy na czyms sie wzorowal? jesli tak to na czym?
18. • 18: CommentAuthortebe
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05

     
    jedyny tracker/player który udostępnia kanał sampli to MPT
19. • 19: CommentAuthormono
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05 zmieniony

     
    ...i drugi jedyny tracker/player jakim jest Black Magic Composer.
    
    Edit: i trzeci jedyny, czyli CMC Sample Maker.
    
    Edit 2: czwarty jedyny to tracker Tomasza Liebicha - niestety niedokończony :/
20. • 20:
       
      CommentAuthorDracon
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05 zmieniony

     

    xxl:

    ale... skoro Hubbard playera napisal na atari... dane muzyki mial z c64 a na c64 FC pojawil sie dopiero dwa lata pozniej to czy na czyms sie wzorowal? jesli tak to na czym?

    
    
    A może sam to wymyślił? ;)
    W książce "Bits and Pieces: A History of Chiptunes" jest napisane (str. 132), że na C64 "90% of the music players were based on Rob Hubbard's techniques".
    ->link<-
21. • 21:
       
      CommentAuthorDracon
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05 zmieniony

     
    .
22. • 22: CommentAuthortebe
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05

     
    MPT działa i wspiera to rozwiązanie natywnie, bez protez i przeróbek
23. • 23: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime4 May 2020 16:05

     
    no to Hubbard jest jeszcze wiekszym ogierem niz myslalem ;D
    
    ale przez jego "maniery" programistyczne latwo namierzyc zerzniety od niego kod. np czasem "zapominal" o LDY w trybie absolutnym indeksowanym X i robil dziwne rzeczy zeby do niego dojsc ;-)
24. • 24: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime5 May 2020 22:05 zmieniony

     
    Can someone explain the topic of the thread to me ? I feel like thrown back to the 80s ;]
    
    The "music players" had been very simple , just to replay the tune in the setting of 3 channels and to resemble the drum and fx to sound like SID.
    
    
    And there is the question why people of the Atari "Scene" think that Hubbard was something great ?
    He did a lot great SID tunes. But he never touched the Atari for music creation.
    
    Jet Set Willy for example is done by one of his employees. The trick that it sounds like music was just that he used 16 Bit for the melodic voice.
    Doing a music driver for a special piece of music is not really rocket science.
    
    RMT uses a lot CPU but it makes sense, as you could do a tune using a lot of different POKEY settings by commands.
    
    RMT was a milestone when Raster released it in 2003 , but there is a lot missing to create music with POKEY .
    RMT also misses to offer a real 16 bit voice and commands.
    Also real Tracker commands were missing.
    
    It really makes no sense , if Atari people talk of a "god" when Hubbard is mentioned.
    
    There are real musicians like Adam Gilmore, or the best of the best "David Whittaker" HE REALLY did sound programming with the Atari and pushed the limits in games using POKEY music.
25. • 25: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime5 May 2020 23:05

     
    yes, Whittaker was great and just like the rest used Hubbard's music player ;-)
26. • 26: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime6 May 2020 21:05

     
    XXL
    But what is it worth? If you say "they all used Hubbard's music player". I had to check it but I'm too lazy for that.
    At least Whittaker did some tunes that really sounded well on the Atari, as they have been build on a typically "face" of POKEY sounding.
    The tunes by Hubbard sounded just like flat SID conversions. Not to say that the International Karate tune misses a big part.
27. • 27: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime6 May 2020 22:05

     
    XXL
    Seem not really "all used Hubbard's music player".
    
    ->link<-
    
    
    The source is a bit loose but it shows clearly that Hubbard only was "God" using SID .
    
    
    Interesting that Whittaker seemed to be a SID "fan" as well, but he managed to get the best of every chip he wrote tunes for.
28. • 28: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime6 May 2020 23:05

     
    there is not a word about the topic we are talking about, I do not know why you paste it.
29. • 29: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime7 May 2020 22:05

     
    XXL
    
    So tell me what this topic is about?
    
    Using a standard setting and play flat SID like tunes with POKEY, will naturally cost low CPU cycles.
    
    The "Hubbard" tunes ARE not complex, neither use POKEY at a "higher" level.
    If you use an universal Tracker, it will OF COURSE use more CPU cycles. But, it will also be possible to do some compiling of any tune to save CPU cycles.
    RMT is a good start, but will there be anything more perfect?
    The funny part is that compressing a SAP that is based on an RMT , will use less CPU cycles.
    
    So it's just AND STILL the missing POKEY TRACKER, that solves all mysteries ;)
30. • 30: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime7 May 2020 22:05

     
    you write about the fact that Hubbard's music is not really rocket science, while Whittaker did sound programming with the Atari...
    
    in fact they both used the same playing procedures and the tool does not matter here :-)
31. • 31: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime7 May 2020 22:05

     
    xxl
    
    The fact is that the "sound routine" is not the "miracle" . Or to write it in straight words: Hubbard was nothing special outside the C64. Even on the Amiga, his tunes have been mediocre. But Whittaker did shine on every platform with any dedicated tune, while Hubbard really faded using PAULA on the AMIGA.
    Hubbard did even use Whittaker's sound programming routines, if it was about "not C64 SID" . You might know, everyone might look like a god in it's own comfort zone.
32. • 32: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime7 May 2020 23:05

     
    it's true which music you like more is a matter of taste: D
    
    the fact is, that the best music on atari, whoever would compose it, was created using the Hubbard playing engine :-)
33. • 33:
       
      CommentAuthorjhusak
    • CommentTime7 May 2020 23:05

     
    Nope. :P
34. • 34: CommentAuthorCharlieChaplin
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 01:05 zmieniony

     
    A few musicians that did -afaik- NOT use Hubbard's playing engine:
    
    T. Liebich, J.Husak, X-Ray, Cedyn, Miker, Jaskier, J. Pelc, K. Ezcan, T. Karwoth, Sven Tegethoff, Stefan Duesterhoeft, Gary Gilbertson, Emkay, Armin Stuermer and dozens of others...
    
    Hubbard did create good music - but NOT the best on Atari!
    
    But regarding his playing engine, there was an article in Mega Magazine on how to change it for stereo (one Atari sound channel for left speaker, two sound channels for the right speaker or vice-versa). And since there are many sounds that used Hubbard's playing routine, they can all be adapted to stereo (never did this though)...
35. • 35: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 09:05

     
    list 10 games with the best music in your opinion
36. • 36: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 09:05

     
    Of course music is still a matter of taste.
    
    XXL
    Do you think the tune in the Video could have been done using the music routines by Hubbard?
    
    

    
    
    The music is much more complex than any Hubbard tune on the Atari.
    Also, even if RMT isn't really optimized, the CPU usage is rather low.
37. • 37: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 09:05

     
    I don't know, I'm not interested in procedures that take twice as much frame time as Hubbard's.
38. • 38: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 09:05

     
    And about "best game tunes" .
    
    Two points to clear out:
    
    1. Exclude tunes of games that were known by the C64 standard.
    
    Many games were just in the head of people because of the C64 version. So the voting is very biased.
    
    If you don't do that, you quickly will end up with a list of
    
    Ninja
    IK
    Jet Set Willy
    Extirpator
    LastV8
    
    and so on.
    
    
    There is the only exception on Ninja which is really catchy using the POKEY.
    Top Notch is still Red Max. But most people don't even know that game.
    
    Really great is the music in Master of the Lamps.
    
    My personal favorite "old tune" is the Title of Rebound.
    
    Then I know a tune from "Another Pong" ;)
    
    A lot of Liebich's tunes .
    
    and so on.
    
    
    2. The problem with "Hubbard's music routines" is that they defined the standard of POKEY to sound flat. Missing a lot of additional development , because the "GOD of SID music" told the truth already. So no musician wanted to go further with music development on the Atari back then.
    
    You know, the polish scene re-woke that and created a new music level on the Atari in games.
39. • 39: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 09:05

     
    XXL
    
    "I don't know, I'm not interested in procedures that take twice as much frame time as Hubbard's."
    
    So why do you care about procedures that were using almost 100% (GTIA beeps)?
40. • 40: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 10:05

     

    emkay:

    Top Notch is still Red Max

    
    
    Hubbard player...
41. • 41: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 13:05

     
    xxl
    
    Ofcourse Mad Max is the exception.
    Later games had better tunes with better players.
42. • 42: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 14:05

     
    impossible. there is no better player.
    
    
    
    Checkmate.
43. • 43: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 15:05

     
    xxl
    "impossible. there is no better player.
    
    
    
    Checkmate."
    
    
    I wonder about your intention.
    A player that causes POKEY sounding flat ( while no options were possible ) can be CPU time saving. But that is no proof of quality. It's just a proof of availablity.
    The problem back then was to have people doing soundtracks for the Atari anyways . And just because Hubbard was in place, further development has stalled.
    In German we have a saying:
    
    Selbsterfüllte Prophezeihung.
    
    or better
    
    Ein Stinktier rief "hier stinkts" es ließ einen Furz und hatte Recht behalten.
    
    I'm really not sure about Hubbard being any great for the Atari. There have been good tunes, "The Goonies" or even "Conan" had their own POKEY flair. The hacking spareparts of the SID replacement "drum & percussions" that made tunes unlistenable on an HIFI, wasn't very helpful to get people interested in the Atari.
44. • 44: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 15:05

     
    there are a lot of meaningless people who don't like the masterpieces made on Hubbard POKEY player routine, but who care.
45. • 45: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 18:05

     
    xxl
    
    I still wonder what that is about?
    
    One one side you blame every "other" music player routines that take a CPU cycle more than that holy piece of software done by Hubbard.
    On the other side you force the "GTIA beep" that is using almost all CPU.
    
    Not to say that particular the Atari is THE machine that is giving better results, if the coder is doing a balanced solution, to get everything doing right.
46. • 46: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 21:05

     
    jeszcze jeden muzyk uzywal czegos ciekawego: Richard Munns (np. Black Lamp)
    
    bardzo kompaktowy player, bardzo szybki - 2 linie ekranu.
    
    chyba za bardzo kompaktowy, bo w SAPie w asma jest dwokrotnie wiecej danych niz potrzeba do odtwarzania muzyki...
47. • 47: CommentAuthorEagle
    • CommentTime8 May 2020 22:05

     
    Od siebie tylko dodam że Liebich nie cierpiał robić czegokolwiek w FC bo jak mówił edytor był strasznie toporny.
    Starał mi się nawet udowodnić że player CMC jest prawie tak samo szybki jak FC ;)
    Wiec komponował w CMC i potem przepisywał do FC.
    Ale to wciąż lepiej niż pisanie w MAC/65 jak to zwykł robić w erze przed CMC/FC.
48. • 48: CommentAuthorxxl
    • CommentTime9 May 2020 01:05

     
    slyszal to ktos?
    
    mozliwe ze wykopalisko :-)

    • whatisthis.mp3
49. • 49: CommentAuthorrosomak
    • CommentTime9 May 2020 07:05

     
    LIelich wielbił się w samplach, i nikt Go nie naśladował, ktoś w ogóle wie co u Niego? Zapomniał o Atari?
50. • 50: CommentAuthoremkay
    • CommentTime9 May 2020 10:05

     
    xxl
    
    It sounds like the tune from Plastron with changed notes.